Masturbatory Insanity
I recently read through Historical Development of New Masturbation Attitudes in Mormon Culture: Silence, Secular Conformity, Counterrevolution, and Emerging Reform by Mark Kim Malan and Vern Bullough (Sexuality & Culture, Fall 2005, Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 80-127.). I put together a timeline of the history of masturbation in the Mormon church as I read through the article:
1700s Masturbation is first connected to insanity and disease in popular and medical literature—anti-masturbation sentiments rise in response—homosexuality and pederasty are linked to masturbation—hysteria becomes widespread and leads to the popularization of male circumcision (which was previously only a religious rite) in an effort to curb masturbation
1830 Joseph Smith organizes the Mormon church
1800s Smith remains publicly silent on masturbation leaving no record of any statements on the issue—Brigham Young, Joseph’s successor, is also silent on the issue of masturbation leaving no record of any statement on the issue—in the absence of official guidance, members of the church tend to go along with popular, hysterical opinion of the day
1870–71 The subject of masturbation is addressed in meetings of the School of the Prophets by Apostles Daniel H. Wells and Lorenzo Snow and President George A. Smith, First Counselor in the First Presidency—polygamy is seen as a cure for masturbation by church leaders—Elder Wells echoed the common sentiment that masturbation would lead to insanity and an early death
1883 Masturbation lumped together with excessive marital coitus as cause of disease in a meeting of the First Presidency
1800s (late) increased acceptance of the bacterial causes of disease undermines the idea that masturbation leads to disease
1920s and ’30s a new era of more factual attitudes in the Church’s official response to masturbation—masturbation shame linked with mental health concerns—official church manuals encouraged parental guidance rather than repression—warned against parental overreaction to masturbation
1940s Church promoted “better dead than alive and unclean” to Mormon members of the military in WWII
1950s several church leaders publish opinions which encourage total abstinence from masturbation—church reverses previous moderate stance, the first time that church policy diverged from the common medical opinion of the day
1958 Elder Bruce R. McConkie publishes Mormon Doctrine with a statement that directly condemns the psychiatric opinion that masturbatory shame is a mental dysfunction thereby creating the impression of an authoritative denunciation of masturbation because of his position as an Apostle
1969 Elder Spencer W. Kimball writes The Miracle of Forgiveness which denounces masturbation and states that religious authority trumps any empirical evidence
1972 American Medical Association declares masturbation to be normal behavior—Boy Scout manual is rewritten to affirm the normalcy of masturbation and its positive role in sexual development—25,000 copies of the manual are destroyed under the influence of Catholic and Mormon churches—revised edition advises boys to counsel with parents and spiritual leaders regarding masturbation—Mormon health care professionals come under increased pressure to honor their priesthood oaths over their professional oaths and standards
1976 Church distributes pamphlet To Young Men Only, a reprinting of an speech by Elder Boyd K. Packer in which he promoted his personal ideas about sexual physiology and desire which contradicted contemporary empirical medical evidence—the pamphlet promotes the idea that sexual desire would be almost absent during puberty if it were not incited, that masturbation causes sexual desire
1980s Elder Mark E. Petersen authored Steps in Overcoming Masturbation targeted to young, male missionaries—his pamphlet advocated harsh psychological control methods and aversion therapy techniques to control masturbation—Mormon psychiatrist Cantril Nielsen pays a large settlement in the wrongful death case of 16-year-old Kip Eliason who he advised to follow his bishop’s counsel to abstain from masturbation in order to be worthy (contrary to the standards of his psychiatric profession)—Kip Eliason committed suicide due to overwhelming feelings of unworthiness while trying to abstain from masturbation—medical experts in the case confirmed that masturbation posed no risks to mental or physical health, but that attempted abstinence from masturbation had a documented history of suicidal risk
1990 LDS church officially publishes For the Strength of Youth pamphlet which continued to denounce masturbation as morally unclean
1994 Is Kissing Sinful?, a book by church member Grant Von Harrison, is published which promotes the extreme position that “If you allow yourself to become sexually aroused prior to marriage, you commit a moral sin”
1995 In a study of 103 married Mormon women (91% of whom attended church services weekly, 5% monthly), 43% reported that they masturbated currently, 54% when they were younger
2001 The church publishes a highly revised For the Strength of Youth which no longer mentions masturbation by name
2004 And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage through Sexual Fulfillment by church member Laura M. Brotherson aims to counteract some of the sexual shame in popular LDS culture—she admits to suffering from psychosexual shame which caused marital dysfunction—she advises that masturbation is permissible when intended to promote marital health
There is a lot more to the article that isn’t covered in this timeline. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Mormon church or in masturbation. 
The picture that I got from this article is that—in the absence of scriptural or official guidance on the issue of masturbation—the popular hysteria and religious distaste for masturbation in the days of the early Mormon church were adopted by default by the members of the church and later enshrined in church doctrine by conservative members of the church hierarchy. The church promoted healthy attitudes toward masturbation during a short time in the early twentieth century. The church then reversed course and now promotes unhealthy attitudes toward masturbation due to doctrinal inertia despite clear evidence that this policy causes its members great, undue emotional distress, all for the sake of a man-made doctrine which insinuated itself into the culture and dogma of the church.
Some revelations are of God; some revelations are of man; and some revelations are of the devil
(Joseph Smith as quoted by David Whitmer, An address to all believers in Christ)
Update:
2010 The new edition of the Church Handbook of Instruction fails to mention masturbation in its discussion of the Law of Chastity (transgressions of which law are said to merit disciplinary action). The only mention of masturbation is to say, “A disciplinary council should not be held to discipline or threaten members who do not comply with the Word of Wisdom, who are struggling with pornography or self-abuse,…”.
Tags: articles, fear, guilt, masturbation, Mormonism, religion, reviews, sexuality
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March 23, 2007 @ 9:37 pm
Rejected titles for this post: “Shaking Hands with the Bishop”, “In Praise of a Well Choked Chicken”, “Answering the Bone-a-Phone”, and “The Five Finger Taco Tango in Five Easy Lessons”. (see also a helpful list of slang terms for masturbation)
March 25, 2007 @ 7:53 am
I just read that article myself two weeks ago. Somebody on FLAK recommended it when I asked about Kip Eliason, an honor student and varsity athlete who committed suicide because his bishop pressured him about masturbation and his therapist followed Kimball’s advice and rejected sound medical practice. Sad, isn’t it?
The contempt and arrogance with which some Mormon leaders approach reason puts our children into harm’s way.
March 25, 2007 @ 10:36 am
Yes, it is very sad. It’s sad to think of all the people in the church who suffer in silence, their pain not dramatic enough to make the news.
I don’t envy the church leaders. They are put in the position of defending all the strange and dangerous positions that the church has taken over the years in order to maintain the appearance of prophetic infallibility. The situation would be a lot better if the leadership humbly admitted that the leaders make mistakes, even when acting in their offices, and that the church’s policy regarding masturbation, for example, was a product of the culture. Instead they have to go on under the assumption that God dictated every jot and tittle that has come out of the leading quorums of the church.
The most interesting part of the article for me was learning that the church was so liberal in the 1920s and 30s. I wonder if allowing itself to be later swayed by arch-conservative leadership wasn’t a survival strategy for the church. The church is self-consciously set apart from the world. Perhaps the church had to take a contrarian position to protect that self-image.
March 26, 2007 @ 9:21 am
I realized that I didn’t cite where I learned about the article: from a comment by KyleM in The Cultural Hall.
Here’s a roundup of other discussions that I’ve come across:
Mormon woman seeking advice about masturbation—quite a few comments in support of the view that masturbation is healthy and not sinful. One insightful comment made the connection between church policies regarding birth control and racially mixed marriages and the policy regarding masturbation. Perhaps there is hope that the church will one day move on just like it did in those cases.
Recent convert doesn’t understand why masturbation is considered a sin—again, several people speak up in support of healthy attitudes toward masturbation.
It would be very interesting to study the attitudes and practices of Mormons of all stripes. Is there a disconnect between the official party line and the ideas of the hoi polloi?
Also, please forgive the following bit of pedantry: masturbation, not masterbation.
Cybr said,
March 26, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
Well, last time I check, Gordon B. Hinckley has asked othersal to not just take his word on things, but to pray for themselves to know if such things are true. Secondly, even such people in ”Mormon” authority who have written books such as “Mormon Doctorine” by Bruce R. McConkie have stated that this is their own personal work and not scripture and any errors are their’s. And lastly, heck, with masturbation who needs a wife.
March 27, 2007 @ 8:31 am
Cybr,
It is true that the church emphasizes personal confirmation of what is taught, but there is also a presumption that what the Spirit says will be in agreement with the Brethren. Members automatically suspect any other answer. If someone walked into a temple recommend interview and assured their bishop that the Spirit had told them that masturbation was OK for them, I doubt that would fly very far, depending on the bishop.
Personal revelation is OK and good in the church as long as it conforms to orthodox views. What happens when it doesn’t? How is a member to decide which revelation to follow: personal revelation or public revelation? If the answer is to always follow the prophet when in doubt, then why bother with seeking personal revelation?
Let me assure you that plenty of people masturbate and manage to have a healthy marital relationship. Masturbation doesn’t fulfill the exact same needs and is not a true substitute.
There is some danger of retreating sexually from a relationship into exclusive masturbation, especially when pornography is involved (which isn’t necessarily the case). Maintaining and nurturing a good sexual relationship can be difficult because it requires us to be selfless, to think outside of our own pleasure. But masturbation is no substitute for the emotional connection with another human being possible in a healthy relationship between two adults. Any attempt to substitute masturbation for a relationship would be a lonely, empty exercise and most people would notice the difference.
I contend that a retreat into exclusive masturbation is a sign of a bigger problem, not a necessarily a product of masturbation itself.
March 27, 2007 @ 8:34 am
Oh, I almost forgot. Let’s not assume that only men masturbate. The idea that good girls don’t masturbate is a false, sexist attitude which tends to shame the women who do.
Cybr said,
March 29, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
My last post left me unsatisfied and I had to just pop off a few more words. And anyone who knows me well enough knows I’ll make fun of almost anything, including my own death.
As far as revelation goes, it needs to follow the hierarchal path. An individual won’t receive revelation as to what church doctrine is, but can receive personal revelation as to the validity of such doctrine. The same applies as a bishop will not receive revelation for a church member not in his ward. ”Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God” (Doc&Cov 132:8) A deviation from that is a fallacy that many Mormons have. Plus, are these individuals preaching and revelating by the Spirit? Hence the need for personal revelation and confirmation.
Now, religious dogma aside and back to the primary subject of “Spanking the Monkey Makes Me Happy.” That could have been another title to use.
Some ground setters: I’m not new to the subject. I’ve had my fair share of experience. And, I’m basing this with the Mormon church set aside (although I’ll admit that it has influenced my opinion)
You said “Let me assure you that plenty of people masturbate and manage to have a healthy marital relationship.” Perhaps this is true. However as you often quote your personal experiences, mine have mostly been to the contrary. For the majority of people I have had this conversation with in the past, it has led to disappointment in the relationship. Normally when masturbation comes up it is either do to a joke or a problem in a sexual relationship. And before you assume anything, these were mostly women and mostly non-LDS individuals at that.
Statistically, masturbation accompanies fantasies and does often lead to p0rn. While pornography might not be the issue, I personally don’t know of anybody who has just upped and satisfied themselves without a little thought in the matter. Any good psychology major knows that sex is ten percent physical and ninety percent psychological. As to psychological stance that it helps relieve tension, they also admit that mediation and exercise can do the same. And ones body has a way of dealing with sexual tension on its own (ie: wet dreams). Masturbation can psychologically be viewed as an addition such as nail biting. So the notion of I can’t live without would be hard to prove to me.
Humans have evolved far past many other animals. We easily have the ability, and is some peoples case the disability, to overcome desires and instincts (which humans seem to lack much in the way of instincts compared to other animals). I’m hungry but I’m fasting to assist my body in purging toxins. I know this stove burner is hot, but I’m going to leave my hand on it because I’m a masochists. We are evolved beings, or so we hope and claim.
“Maintaining and nurturing a good sexual relationship can be difficult because it requires us to be selfless, to think outside of our own pleasure.†It’s interesting you point this out. Is not masturbation selfish? Does it please our partner? OK, maybe some people get their kicks off of it. Does doing so show love for your partner? Does it show honor for your partner or would it require seppuku to amend (obviously an extreme)? Masturbation is selfish. True love making is a selfless act as you’ve stated. I have found great pleasure in making sure my wife is satisfied, even at the cost of my own personal sexual satisfaction. The smiles and affections of my wife often transcend the requirement of my own climactic end. Although the benefits are nice and I will not say that I do not enjoy it, I do not make love to satisfy myself. And despite old addictions that die hard, it is not a requirement. Masturbation is a sexual act that distracts from ones partner. For that matter, the actual act of sex and the moment of climax are not always needed every time in the sexual relationship.
Masturbation is a selfish act in a relationship. I will not dispute this with a person not in a relationship. Although to someone who has not had sex, it can create misconceptions as to the act of lovemaking. Sex is power. With power comes responsibility. Power properly channeled can be useful and creative, or can be used for owns own selfish gain.
And if one is seeking understanding, many philosophies talk about transcending the physical and the self in order to reach true enlightenment. I do like the old Japanese notion that pillowing is about as close to the gods as we get. OK, a little religion there.
March 29, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
You said “Let me assure you that plenty of people masturbate and manage to have a healthy marital relationship.†Perhaps this is true. However as you often quote your personal experiences, mine have mostly been to the contrary. For the majority of people I have had this conversation with in the past, it has led to disappointment in the relationship.
I won’t try to contradict your experience. But I wonder if masturbation is the cause of marital problems or if it is just a symptom. Perhaps we resort to masturbation when a sexual relationship isn’t going well and our needs are going unfulfilled. It’s a poor substitute, I admit, but coping mechanisms are rarely ideal. Perhaps we’re confusing correlation with causation.
Statistically, masturbation accompanies fantasies and does often lead to p0rn. While pornography might not be the issue, I personally don’t know of anybody who has just upped and satisfied themselves without a little thought in the matter.
I admit that this is true, but is fantasy necessarily bad? Perhaps we fantasize about making love to our spouse while we masturbate. I can see no harm in that. Even if we’re not so fastidious about the subject of our fantasies, I no longer believe that fantasy will strongly determine future behavior without other contributing factors. I would like to see studies on the subject, but for now, I’ll rely on my experience with fantasy in other parts of my life. I have fantasized about a great many things which I never actually did. Anything from overcoming my shyness to talk to that cute girl who seems to like me, to running off the road that jerk who cut me off. I fulfilled very few of my fantasies, including the ones involved in masturbation (much to the relieve, I’m sure, of my high school’s cheerleading squad… TMI?).
This is a complex subject. I won’t say that there is no danger in fantasy, but nothing in life is without risk. We often overestimate the risks. I think the Mormon church overestimates the risk involved in sexual fantasy.
Any good psychology major knows that sex is ten percent physical and ninety percent psychological. As to psychological stance that it helps relieve tension, they also admit that mediation and exercise can do the same.
I think there are needs above and beyond tension which masturbation can fulfill which meditation and exercise could not.
And ones body has a way of dealing with sexual tension on its own (ie: wet dreams).
Not everyone is capable of having wet dreams to relieve sexual tension (half the population at the very least ).
Masturbation can psychologically be viewed as an addition such as nail biting. So the notion of I can’t live without would be hard to prove to me.
I don’t think masturbation is something that can’t be lived without like eating and breathing. There are some who can go without. There are others who have a very difficult time refraining from the joys of self-love. I also don’t think there’s generally any harm in it, so why be abstinent if you don’t want to? Why berate and shame those who aren’t abstinent?
Humans have evolved far past many other animals. We easily have the ability, and is some peoples case the disability, to overcome desires and instincts (which humans seem to lack much in the way of instincts compared to other animals). I’m hungry but I’m fasting to assist my body in purging toxins. I know this stove burner is hot, but I’m going to leave my hand on it because I’m a masochists. We are evolved beings, or so we hope and claim.
I agree. There are many things which our animal nature pressures us to do. Human society relies on our ability to suppress or redirect some of those pressures into more productive channels. There are other pressures which we don’t try to overcome like breathing or swallowing. Where is masturbation in that picture? Is it something that we must completely suppress in order to be happy?
“Maintaining and nurturing a good sexual relationship can be difficult because it requires us to be selfless, to think outside of our own pleasure.†It’s interesting you point this out. Is not masturbation selfish? Does it please our partner?
We can’t do everything in life directly for our partner, despite romantic notions to the contrary. If we didn’t take time to recreate ourselves, we wouldn’t be much of a partner (speaking generally, not just about sex).
And despite old addictions that die hard, it is not a requirement. Masturbation is a sexual act that distracts from ones partner.
It can distract, especially when tied to shame. If we are ashamed of masturbation, we may pull away from our partner in order to hide our vulnerability. If we have unreasonable expectations about what sex should be (thanks a lot porn and romance novels!), masturbation may aid in retreating into a fantasy world where women are willing and ready or men are dark and dashing and sex is never awkward or messy. If we masturbate excessively, we may not have enough interest in our partner. So, yes, there are dangers but I don’t know that masturbation itself is the root of those problems; shame, unrealistic expectations, and intemperance are the root causes.
There are also benefits to masturbation which include not only stress reduction but also a boosted immune system, relief from menstrual cramps, reduced risk of prostate cancer, and so on. So the wise course seems to be one of moderation. Not too much, not too little, but just enough. Gives me ideas about how to use the story of Goldilocks as an object lesson.
And if one is seeking understanding, many philosophies talk about transcending the physical and the self in order to reach true enlightenment. I do like the old Japanese notion that pillowing is about as close to the gods as we get. OK, a little religion there.
If abstaining from masturbation helps in transcending the self, why not be celibate like Buddhist monks? Why would intercourse with a spouse be permissible when attempting transcendence and masturbation would not?
March 29, 2007 @ 2:40 pm
I always have extra thoughts right after I post my comment.
The desire to masturbate is not equivalent to being addicted to it no more than the desire to breathe is an addiction. Sexual addiction is about compulsion, excess, guilt, fear, a desire to be loved, disassociation, despair, and self-destruction. That is why I’m so distressed about how the Mormon church connects masturbation and shame: it turns a healthy, innocent behavior into something ugly and destructive.
Cybr said,
March 29, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
I still don’t see how breathing and swallowing could be equated with masturbation, breathing in peticular being an autonaumic funtion like our heart beating. That’s like saying walking is an instinct for humans. It’s been shown that it needs to be learned. Yes, we can have some control over our breathing and even our heartbeat to a degree, but stop these functions and the body dies. Rather quickly I might add. Your arguement in that regard is as flawed as some of my points.
I always love when people assume shame is always a bad thing. Morally, shame reminds us we have done wrong. More extremely, is stealing bad? Is killing in cold blood bad? Yet there are those who’ve overcome the guilt and no longer feel it. They must have achieved a cure over societal bondage. The other argument this always reminds me of is those who are always trying to debate the use of marijuana. I do it in my own home. It’s not gonna hurt anybody else. It’s not gonna affect anybody else. It’s a natural herb that’s just used to make me feel good. Oh, and let us not forget the medicinal purposes. I almost sounds like the same story just different subject.
Well, I feel finished off. On to another subject.
Cybr said,
March 29, 2007 @ 6:05 pm
I mean I’m finished with this subject.
Cybr said,
March 29, 2007 @ 6:14 pm
Next subject, why wives moderate how you word things. Haha, she’s already left for a couple hours so this will be good.
March 29, 2007 @ 7:41 pm
Well I don’t feel finished off. I could blather on for quite a while yet.
You do have a point about masturbation not being quite exactly essential for survival like breathing or even swallowing. So in that respect it’s not an apt comparison. I compared them not because masturbation is vital to everyone’s survival, but rather because trying to avoid masturbating can be detrimental to the psychological and sexual health of some people. I refer you to this case, for example. In that same thread is another person caught up in a dangerous cycle.
You’re right: all shame is not bad, only misplaced shame. I happen to believe that masturbatory shame is misplaced. Further, it isn’t natural. It has to be learned. A person’s conscience won’t send guilt signals unless the person has been taught to be ashamed.
Regarding marijuana, I’m afraid you’re using the wrong argument on me.
Though I’ve never partaken and never plan too, I don’t think marijuana should be illegal. I mean if I can walk down to the corner store and buy tobacco and alcohol which are both much more addictive and harmful than marijuana, but I can’t buy marijuana, then I think we as a society are not seeing the situation clearly.
But that’s a discussion for another day. Thanks for your thoughts.
April 3, 2007 @ 2:46 am
As much as I think it’s pointless to discuss this subject with people whose view of masturbation is sex=sin=evil Q.E.D., I’d just like to address this point of “selfishness.”
It is not only common but typical in a relationship for the partners to have somewhat mismatched libidos. Almost every long term relationship goes through phases where one partner is more frequently aroused than the other (and this may switch back and forth as to which one it is). Partners can’t always be there and be “on” for each other. I can think of nothing more selfish than to say to one’s partner “Sorry, you get no sexual release at all until I’m ready to give it to you.”
In a healthy relationship, the two partners remain individuals. It is reasonable and common to promise not to bring another person into the relationship (cheating), however that is very different from signing over your bodily autonomy, as if marriage means you no longer have the right to have your own separate body.
April 3, 2007 @ 7:53 am
Well said, C. L. Hanson. Thank you.
On the flip side of what you said, it would be unfair for one partner to demand attention whenever they desire it regardless of the feelings of the other.
FYI said,
April 5, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Speaking on guilt; I must say that guilt can be misplaced. I know from my personal experience that as a teenager I felt guilty for having “wet dreams.” I still battle with this guilt as my attempt to resist this was obviously difficult if not impossible. My guilt has continue to magnify after masturbating without even touching(maybe this wouldnt be masturbation, but I accepted it as so) myself because of the pressure that had built up by trying to resist. This led to extreme guilt and continued guilt to this day; I really have tried everything I know of to stop; except some of the absurd statements made by Mark E. Petersen.
Also, on my mission I knew a missionary who suffered from extreme guilt because he was having involuntary or spontaneous orgasms while walking. The mission president had him go to the doctor and the doctor said it was an easy fix. I think we all know what the doctor said but what is a good mormon young man serving his God suppose to do. Obey God’s chosen or a health expert?
FYI said,
April 5, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
I also have a problem with some of the statements that have been made by various leaders about such things as masturbation and birth control. Many brethren were against birth control, how many members suffered unnecessarily from guilt about this topic because they thought they could not have sex without the intent to procreate. Thankfully the church has come out and clarified its stance so members no longer have to go off of the opinions of former church hierarchy.
That being said I think that they need to take a more realistic approach in regard to the issue of masturbation. Based on my understanding of the issue far too many people suffer from having difficulties with this. As a leader in the church I can say that the leadership of the church is very concerned about losing the young people and considering the exceptionally high amount of young people that have had an experience with masturbation, why give them another reason to give up on themselves and their relationship with God.
Oftentimes these young people also feel a need to confess to their bishop about a “problem” that hasn’t hurt anybody else but themselves(guilt). These people dont want to talk to the bishop about a private act such as masturbation that happens in private places anymore than talking about their urinating and defecating frequencies. The only person(s) that needs to communicate with these young people about these situations is the parent(s) They address the issue, let them know what is acceptable i.e. not in public and from there you dont need to bring it up anymore unless they have a question and maybe some other situations that I dont wish to conjure up.
That is my opinion, but if the church really feels that masturbation is an evil wrongdoing that needs to be purged from society then I believe they need to give more credible explanations as to why they need to refrain. Telling kids they will become gay, blind, or incite sexually feelings. The talk by Packer is far from infallible and Petersen’s discourse of ideas is appauling and repulsive. If Kimball’s statement about masturbation and homosexuality were true then I think there would be a whole lot more prominents of homosexual behavior in this world. I guess what I am trying to say is that if the church is going to give the church populace a reason for not doing something then it need to be a true statment. If it is not then they need to take it back. A classic example of this is with the word of wisdom. Obviously anyone who has seen the numerous surgeon’s general warnings now knows that smoking is not good for the health and thereby validates D+C 89.
FYI said,
April 5, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
I still have some more to say about this. I believe that masturbation does not lead to pornography use anymore than lifting weight or working out leads to over obsession about ones looks or body image. If anything it is the guilt of masturbation that leads to pornography because a person feels that they are already unworthy and cannot stop so why not. However, if the person realizes that masturbation is ok in moderation and has made the decision to avoid porn then that person is still going to resist the tempation to indulge in mentally scarring images which produce problems that would be better addressed in another forum.
The fact that I am making is that if a person decides that they are not going to do something than they are not going to do it. You have to conciously go after those images and find them or stumble on them and willingly indulge(in order to fall into the trap of porn). However with masturbation some people have very high sex drives that can cause very difficult problems for that person if they do not find a release(including very serious cases as referred to in a previous post). Obviously not all teenagers can just go get married. A young man can avoid pornography but he will never be able to avoid the feelings and tensions that arise in their “pelvic regions.” And for a GA to say that a young man wont even notice these feelings in his body if he doesnt masturbate is just silly and hurtful for these young people. I never masturbated as a teenager and I was definitely aware of the feelings in my body. I masturbate now not because I decided I was going to but because of some fluke accident upon waking up in the middle of the night. Since then I have tried to fight the impulse, confess to priesthood leadership, and even accepted the leadership’s teachings on the subject. No matter what I have tried I could not stop. I will spare the details but after battling such a problem for so long and letting it ruin every aspect of my life I have recently decided to not make it a focus in my life and just accept it as a bodily release that occassionly needs to be done just like using the restroom. This still has not rid me of the guilt but I feel healthier and less uptight than i did before.
I suppose someone could argue that one should resist the flesh but I would ask how does one know how far is too far. There are a lot of “fleshy” things we do and we dont consider them a sin as long as they are done in moderation and as long as we dont lose focus on the important things. For some people masturbation may be a bodily need, a release that needs to happen, just like people need to be loved, and have recreation. All three of these could be stated that technically they are not needs because one wont die without them but they can be essential to ones mental, physical, and emotional well being. Some people never make time to have recreation and dedicate all their time to work, church, or whatever. That is fine but not all people can live a life of peace and fulfillment if they dont have time for recreation.
There are some more comments I would like to share but I will quiet myself now and see if there is still any interest in this forum.
April 5, 2007 @ 9:34 pm
I’m interested in what more you have to say.
It can be hard to let go of the guilt especially when you’ve been trained to feel guilty about it all of your life. It’s not as easy as flipping a switch regrettably.
I have been thinking recently that it would be interesting to research the development of the idea of the infallibility of Mormon leadership. I don’t think I could do the subject justice, but I think the first real mention of it may be by Wilford Woodruff trying to justify the switch in doctrine regarding polygamy. It may be very important to help relieve feelings of guilt if we realize that the Brethren weren’t always considered infallible.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
I was reading over some of the other post and i saw some comments about masturbation and its link to addiction. Based on my observations masturbation can become compulsive, addictive, and destructive. However, there are numerous things people do, which are not bad, and cause any one of the three problems above. Some struggle with OCD and always think their hands are dirty and have to wash them continuously. Some people become addicted to shopping because of the release of endorphins in their brain, and a teenager that spends every waking moment playing basketball and gives no emphasis whatsoever to God, school, work, or whatever could arguably become destructive to his/her well being. However, for most people none of these things are created by masturbating. Shopping too much leads to lack of money, gambling can lead to the same problem and potentially more quickly, and pornography leads to unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex and images that are engrained into the mind that one cannot just be rid of.
Masturbation can and probably often accompanies fantasies in the mind. This in my opinion is the strongest argument that anti-masturbators have within in the church. However I have recently read about numerous persons that have learned to masturbate without fantasies on themarriagebed.com. So…it appears to atleast be possible if one surely just focuses on the physical sensations and the tension release.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 2:02 pm
Returning to the original subject, I must say that compulsion and addiction is created more by the guilt and frustration in their inability to stop the behavior than from the actual action itself. For example, in my life when I first stumbled onto this act quite by accident(as referenced above) I felt extreme and devastating guilt. I was in my twenties(impressive in it of itself), didnt really know what an orgasm was except in regard to those teenager jokes in high school, and I thought wet dreams were worth feeling guilt over. You can imagine the impact that my first masturbatory experience had on me. It rocked my world, but I thought that if I confessed immediately let it go then I would leave it behind me. I was wrong. After numerous confession sessions and priesthood leadership continous consoling I was not overcoming the problem, it was getting worse.
When I think of my personal circumstances I must say that I masturbate less now that I dont think about it and constantly strive to avoid any circumstance or potential threat that could ultimately lead to me getting off. When I obsessed about conquering the problem I became so engulfed with confusion and frustration that I almost let myself get involved in pornography. Happily I came to my senses and realized that is exactly what Satan would’ve wanted. I avoided porn, began to research masturbation and find out what could be done about my problem. I began by searching through church resources. They were all very vague. Most church resources only mention it in a lumped up list of numerous sins and expectations. The most useful resources were To the Young men only, Miracle of forgiveness, and the Petersen recommedations.
I tried all of thier suggesstions. Marking days, prayer, scripture mastery and reading(which I already had been doing but I continued), extra dedication to church callings(which led to my receiving more responsibility in the church and I still work in such capacities), wearing tight clothing, never being alone, working more, taking more school credits, I wouldn’t even so much as look at a girl(I WAS IN COLLEGE!). This turned into more of a torturous few years rather than a productive growth toward ultimately defeat of the problem. I began to become very depressed and had suicidal thoughts. Again I needed to find counsel.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 2:04 pm
I began to search through church materials once again. I went to LDS.org, the only thing I found there that was new was a 12-step program for overcoming pornography, I thought to myself,” well…I dont have a problem with porn but I will try the same principles that they discuss.” This almost worked in combination with some of the things I was doing above but has anyone here ever tried to walk around with erections and be on the brink of orgasm nearly all day without even having to think of sex or anything remotely sensual. I did. I thought it was a sin to have an erection especially if you couldn’t make it go away. I just delved deeper into my studies, workout, work, church, etc. in order to avoid these feelings. Eventually I lost this battle. Not after one day but weeks of battling.
I tried that battle a few more times and decided to go to the internet and look up medical websites like webmd and see what they suggest. To my surprise they said that it was ok and normal. I still didnt believe it because I knew that revelation trumps science. What I didnt realize is that there is no real recorded or presented revelation in regard to masturbation in the church. Most of the statements are referenced to opinion book and essays. the only real discussion on the subject that could be referred to as potential doctrine revelation would be the two talks I found on the subject in General Conference. Packer’s talk during the 76′ priesthood session, and a talk by an Elder Vaughn Featherstone(I think during the 80′s). Both talks while somewhat inspiring both lack real explanations. Featherstone doesnt do much more than give a guilt trip and advice to avoid it. Packer did actually try to explain the problem both spiritually and physically, however his admirable effort may have been able to hold up in 1976 but in light of the current understanding this talk does not hold up to be completely factual especially when he talks about how male biology and anatomy works.
After reading this one may think that I am a Mormon on the brink of apostasy and that I am pro-masturbation. I am not either of these. I believe wholeheartedly in the true doctrine of Jesus Christ as revealed to his prophets and apostles in times past and current times. My beef here is in regard to the revelation. Where is it?
I think that the problem should be addressed. Just because a GA says something does not make it truth. They are men, albeit good men, inspiring men, and it is truly remarkable how they lead the church. But, there appeal to help Mormons be healthy and avoid masturbation is out of date. They either need to update their statements or let the members know as they did with birth control that we no longer need to make this a poing of emphasis except in our families when children need to be taught what is acceptable and appropriate behavior and what is not.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
I learned on my mission that truth is always supported by truth. If a particular subject or idea is true but currently revelation cannot explain why it is true then one should not attempt to explain the veracity of the truth with false notions and personal opininos but avoid explanation and just state it as a statement of truth. This is like the first vision of Joseph Smith. I can testify with the spirit that Joseph Smith saw God and the Son and state it as truth(from a church perspective) and who can dispute that. They werent there and they dont know how came to that knowledge. It is truth. But if I were to tell the story of the first vision and then begin to explain my opinion on how it happened going into the physics and how radiation has been found in that area of Palmyra due to the appearance of God to Joseph Smith then obviously the spirit is gone and one cannot feel the spirit testify of the truth of the first vision.
This is what has happened with the masturbation issue. Leaders stated that masturbation was a sin(an apparent statement of truth) but then backed it up with false statements. Even if masturbation is a sin, their false statements surrounding the truth depreciated the truth value and the ability for the spirit to testify to ones heart that masturbation is a sin. The spirit always testifies of the truth. If they came out today and said that masturbation was a sin, stated it as a truth, then said that most of the statements in regard to masturbation are not true but nevertheless the act is still a sin then a member of the church would no longer have any other way to dispute this doctrine other then the ugly track record.
That being said, it is my opinion that within the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints a revelation should precede opinion. When revelation is given GA’s, Stake Presidents, and members alike can discuss their opinions in regard to the revelation i.e. why it exists, how it works, why we need to, but they are only opinions not revelation or doctrine. They are small things that can help augment or solidfy the testimony of an individual.
The real problem with the church’s stance on masturbation is the apparent fact that opinions led to supposed revelation or doctrine. It should go the other way around. Furthermore the opinions were false. Mental insanity, blindness, etc were not true. These became the basis for the eventual complete demonizing of masturbation. I also believe that if the church did decide to loosen up on the subject or change their stance on this issue and explained it just as I have but maybe with more clarity and eloquence then the members of the church would be more than willing to except their mistake. I dont know if they every will. It appears that with the disappearnce of the subject from the Youth manual, although it does appear to refer to it, and from the Church Handbook of Instructions that the church leadership just want ignore the subject. Sadly, the lower leadership is not ignoring the problem and many are being subjected to extreme guilt and pain. If anyone felt any more guilt or pain than that which I had I am afraid to think what would happen to them. Or the idea that some young person will not believe or give up on God because of a common nearly universal behavior that doesnt hurt anybody unless they are virtually made to feel that they have. All that information and I didnt find any address by the church to women and masturbation. why not? It appears that according to the journal research on masturbation conformity that more women are accepting of the behavior then the men. If that is true why dont they talk about this in women’s conference or something? Interesting huh, lets attack the young men blatantly make them feel terrible but make the women suffer in silence and wonderment.
wow…this was a lot. Nobody is going to want to read this but I hope that if you did that it was interesting. Remember that truth is always supported by truth, not fallacies.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
These were all originally in one post but i did some copy and paste action to make it shorter because it wasnt posting with all of the content as one.
There are a few parts where I think I get off on tangents and my points are not quite as clear as they should be so if their any questions and/or rebuttals let me know and I will try to address it more clearly. That being stated I am not here to pick a fight but to express an opinion and see what others think.
April 6, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
Thank you for posting your thoughts. Yes, I did read all of it. Sorry that it wouldn’t let you post the whole thing at once.
I sympathize with your pain and hope you can find a way to let go of it.
Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone came to speak at an encampment of Mormon Boy Scouts when I was 14. I remember him talking about masturbation and saying that studies have shown that if you can break a habit for three weeks, you can break it forever. He said that if we could go without masturbation for three weeks, we would be rid of it. Well, that proved overly optimistic.
Leaders stated that masturbation was a sin (an apparent statement of truth)
I’m curious. Why do you believe that masturbation is a sin? You say that all of the justifications that the General Authorities have given for avoiding masturbation were just opinions (and flawed opinions at that). So why isn’t the idea that masturbation is a sin also not just another opinion, like their opinions about birth control, which will be cast off with time?
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
It is hard to say whether I believe that masturbation is a sin or not. This is a difficult question for me to answer and I am sorting through it. I am a very active member of the church and also hold a leadership position in the church; I have always been one to defend the church and its teachings. I have given public speeches about church doctrine and i believe that I have found a way to explain nearly every question that has been given me in regard to the church and it teachings. However, masturbation has escaped my grasp. Stack on top of that the difficulties suffered from it and I begin to have mixed feelings. I instinctively want to defend the church.
I have currently exhausted my resources on this subject and I still feel dissatisfied; this has never happened to me after studying anything about the church.
I no longer believe that masturbation is a sin. That is my current personal opinion. It helped my masturbation problem change from an obsession that was tearing me down to a happy, healthy life. I still am not able to say this publicly because I have had a hardtime gauging the opinions of church authorities and membership; lets face it, this subject is not just taboo in the church but everywhere and therefore it makes it difficult to talk about. This subject came up with some friends one night and when I tried to explain some of the information that I had found they no longer wanted to talk about it because they felt uncomfortable. I pressed it a bit and they actually were glad that I had told them some of the information that I had found.
So…to directly answer your question; I no longer believe that it is a sin; at least that is where I stand at the current time.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 6:14 pm
I am still unable to account for the fantasies and lustful thoughts that accompany masturbation. As I said before this is probably the strongest anti-masturbatory position that they have. However, none of the authorities have ever given this explanation as a reason for masturbation being wrong, which surprises me.
It is my nature to have to look at both sides of the argument before making a conclusive statement of belief. That is why it is so hard for me to let go of the idea that masturbation could be a sin; but I also have found that I have a stronger resistance against lustful thoughts when I am to relieve myself on occasion.
Since the church appears to be determined to ignore the issue for now I am left to look at the pros and cons of the situation and see which side has the most benefits. Right now the pro-masturbators have a stronger argument. Go to any health website and you will find many of the benefits for both males and females. Go to any church website to find the cons and you only find that you are more prone to be gay, start up your factory, or end up on a list of current or past masturbators. Wow, would I rather avoid prostate cancer or fear starting up my factory that is already started up?
My experience has taught me that the strength of the church lies in its ability to be truthful about controversial doctrine about God, the Atonement, Polygamy, and priesthood. There argument about masturbation lack complete truth and that is why MY most pressing argument is that the church come out and make a fully truthful statement about the issue; whether it is in favor or against it doesnt matter as to the strength church’s position, it would only strengthen the position of the church.
they need to address this because they have not been completely factual in their statements. I hope they dont ignore this forever; maybe they wont address it until Boyd K. Packer dies. I dont know. (Don’t take this as me saying that I want him to die, i think he has given some great talks; just the masturbation talk was not very good and destructive for many people)
PS It was not a big deal to have to copy and paste; I just didnt know that it wouldnt work.
FYI said,
April 6, 2007 @ 6:51 pm
I went back and read some of the posts and noticed your thought on some of the false statements by GA’s and documenting them. you are right, that would be a difficult endeavor. I have an extensive library of books, I read and study alot and I have found statments that are not true. However, most of these statements are so obviously wrong that nobody really disputes or discusses them anymore. Masturbation is still a debated topic among many denominations and faiths, not just the Mormon church. That is why it is so difficult to get people to accept false statements on the subject. It is exceptionally difficult to be rid of 3+ centuries of indoctrination on a culture. MAN! I Wish the church would just come out and talk about this and not with weird factory metaphors. Speak to me clearly and directly.
I wonder how many people are truly honest with themselves in regard to this. Everyone has to keep it a secret and pretend like none of the members do this. Trust me when I say that this is the most confessed sin among teenagers. They do, and many dont or cant stop, some do and that is great but what about everyone else. Are they just not destined to be accepted to the Celestial kingdom? How depressing is that? I used to think that. Scary huh.
I wish I could agree with Featherstones opinion about the 3 week rule. I made it but it came with a price. I couldnt even focus on school work because the tension was so great.
To close I would just like to say that health experts say it doesnt really matter if you masturbate or not. If you dont that cool. If you do that is cool too; just keep it private. If the church were to take a stand like this(it appears that they did for a short time of the church’s history) it would not mean that they would have to bend on every other morality issue(they could still be against porn, gambling, premarital sex, adultery, etc; they have scriptures and truth to support them in this), it would only mean that there would be far fewer people suffering with guilt in the church about such a normal but nonimportant aspect of life.
April 7, 2007 @ 5:01 am
I get the feeling that there are many members of the church (probably nowhere near a majority) who silently disagree with the notion that masturbation is a sin.
I hope its true, but I think Mormon attitudes about masturbation will shift just like the attitudes surrounding birth control. The church leadership is between a rock and a hard place. They couldn’t come out and say “All that stuff we said about masturbation being sinful? Yeah, that was a mistake.” That would only make people question other teachings. The church depends on the impression of infallibility to assert moral authority. If the membership can’t trust the leadership to be correct on any given topic, then they are left to think for themselves and seek out their own answers. This is what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both had in mind, but somehow the church lost that vision.
The ultimate problem with that is if we all start thinking for ourselves, there’s going to be a lot of different opinions, the influence of the Holy Spirit notwithstanding. What then do we need the church for? Priesthood ordinances and social interaction maybe?
It can be hard to hold together a group with very diverse opinions. That’s why the church leadership can’t openly admit mistakes. When the leadership recognizes a mistake, one trick is to stop talking about it and let people forget about it and then gradually start teaching something else or just drop the topic forever. This is what’s happened with birth control and oral sex, for example. This may be happening at this very moment with the “As man is, God one was / As God is, man may become” doctrine. Gordon B. Hinckley has gone on record twice recently saying like “There was a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.” This might signal a change in direction for Mormon theology.
FYI said,
April 7, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
Well…I agree that the church is stuck in a difficult situation. However, they have had worse. Seriously why is this such a big deal for the church? I went back and read Packer’s talk to make sure I was being just in my assumptions; I feel I am, it is inaccurate. If they were to attempt a change then they would probably take a similar approach to that of birth control. 1. realization of inaccuracies 2. silence 3. subtle change
I agree with you as well that we were meant to seek out our own answers(that is how the church started; a boy with a question). I am not going to go search for the exact sources or references but I remember two statements by both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith Jr. that are applicable:
I give the members correct principles and they govern themselves (Joseph Smith)
Every man and woman can receive as strong of a testimony of Jesus Christ as any of the quorum of the 12(Brigham young)
These are not word for word(I am going off of memory), but they give general support of your comment.
I believe members are suppose to have different opinions. Part of the beauty of human life is the diversity that exists–including opinions. I believe that leadership should only teach correct principles. In most of the relatively new resources that the LDS church has in regard to how to teach; including Teaching No Greater Call and Preach My Gospel(new missionary manual); it is clear that Church leadership wants the members to speak about simple and plain truths and to stay true to the doctrine, not personal tangents and beliefs. Teach that which has been revealed. Then when people leave church they go home and “govern themselves.” You dont teach personal truths but truths found in scripture or church approved publishings.
Again, the problem with masturbation is that I dont see where the masturbation revelation ever occurred, and if it was a revelation why didnt they get it right in regard to health issues. First, there was moderation and then some GA’s stated, in their opinion, that it was wrong, then all of a sudden Packer speaks and it is doctrine. This is clearly influenced by McConkie and Kimball. Both stated their opinions in opinion books. Mormon Doctrine has been revised more times than I would care to count(hardly seems like a valid source) and Kimball was only a SP when he wrote his book. I do think they were trying to help and it was an innocent mistake. Mistakes happen, Joseph Smith had many ideas that never came to fruition the way he had planned. Peter and Paul had disagreements and were both apostles. There are plenty of examples of men and/or women who have been called of God and have made a misjudgment or two. It is normal, the only one that needed to be perfect was Jesus.
I do believe that if the church stepped up and showed some fortitude in this regard and presented it correctly that the church membership would be forgiving. Anyone who said that the church was suddenly not true just because a group of men made a mistake(s) is hardly fair when taken in full light and knowledge of follies of other God chosen people; this in my opinion tells me that these people would be being somewhat naive or ignorant in regard to church history.
I also believe that it is best for the leadership to teach the gospel in the most simple way possible. With the growing membership it is becoming virtually impossible to micromanage the members i.e. masturbation among other issues, many of which have been dealt with or forgotten. Scripture is clear in regard to the avoidance of adultery, fornication, lying, jealousy, the need of baptism, love, charity, and many other things; why try to explain anymore than these basic values. Anyway, that is just my opinion. I also see this as a general trend in reviewing the conference talks over the last century. Read any of the talks over the last ten years and you will see the very general teachings that are presented w/ very few exceptions.
the whole man to god; god was a man thing is worthy of its own forum. there is a lot of material there and as Hinckley said, it is pretty deep theology. I am not sure if it is the beginning of a potential move to change doctrine or simply an avoidance of the question in order to not have to dispute and argue over what certain scriptures mean. I would do this on my mission. Not because I couldnt answer the question but because I didnt want a fight and to take so much time to explain something that the other person would never agree with. But, you could be onto something there; I don’t know.
I have a question tho. I have mentioned this earlier a bit but How does fantasy during masturbation fit into the whole lust after another woman thing? Is it lusting? Just wondering what your opinion is(you did mention the cheerleaders, lol). My opinion regarding this is still developing so I wanted to hear what someone else had to say. What would be the difference between masturbation fantasies and porn+masturbation? I am just curious.
April 8, 2007 @ 7:28 am
Masturbation and fantasies is a clouded issue for me. I realize that fantasizing about something carries some risks of encouraging dangerous, immoral, or anti-social behavior. That risk is portrayed as an almost certainty in the Church which I think overstates the risk.
I don’t believe in “sin” anymore though I still believe in morality and empathy. So I’ll discuss fantasy from that angle. The question that troubles me is whether fantasizing about someone other than your committed partner is emotional infidelity. And if it is, where along the sexual attraction spectrum do we draw the line? For example, I don’t think that it is immoral for me to notice that a woman other than my wife is attractive. It’s almost impossible to avoid it. It’s hardwired into the heterosexual male mind. Beyond that the waters get murky for me. How long is it OK to dwell on that attraction? What kind of thoughts can I entertain? Can I feel sexually aroused and still be considered faithful? Where do I draw the line?
As a practical matter, all considerations of emotional fidelity aside, I think we can have a rich fantasy life while remaining faithful to our partner in physical fact. I think a woman could fantasize about men in uniform, for example, without jumping the next policeman who pulls her over for speeding. It is part of being an adult that we can hold more than one emotion at once and balance them in a productive way. Our hypothetical woman might be aroused by a good looking policeman walking up to her car, but being an emotionally mature person she allows her other emotions and her conscience to override any desire she might have to act on her attraction. That’s what the virtue of temperance is all about: managing mixed emotions with grace.
Now that I don’t believe in sin, I can be aroused by something but not worry about it. This means that I might see a beer ad full of bikini models one minute but forget about it within a short time after the commercial ends. Guilt due to sexual attraction or arousal would only serve to make me focus more on those bikini models. If I met a bikini model in person, I would be less likely to be obsessed with any sexual attraction that I would feel making me safer from physical infidelity.
You bring up an interesting question with regard to the difference between masturbation using pure fantasies versus masturbation using pornography. The chief problem with pornography, as far as I can see, is that it shapes and distorts our natural sexuality in many ways. It conditions us to expect certain body shapes and behaviors. It portrays sex as a no-strings-attached experience where pregnancy, disease, and emotional distress are never seen. We come to expect sexual gratification on demand. Those are the dangers that I see.
This distortion is great for those who sell pornography, because it is the sexual equivalent of junk food. It compels us to consume more and more to gratify our desires. Real life falls short of our expectations. It can destroy our ability to find sexual fulfillment in real life.
For both fantasy and viewing pornography, it seems that a little bit won’t hurt as long as we can keep it in moderation and understand its effects on us. Pornography, however, doesn’t seem necessary to our sexual health. I try to avoid it as a general, casual principle though I don’t worry if I see something arousing. I just try to refrain from seeking it out.
FYI said,
April 8, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Thanks…I appreciate your comments. I agree that it would take a rather extraordinary or maybe abnormal man to not notice any other pretty woman other than his wife. Your comparison of pornography being a similar equivalent to “junk food” was good. I agree with you. I also agree that both masturbation and pornography are not devastating to ones being if done in moderation. I really dont have a problem with the church’s stance on porn however. like you said it is not necessary for you sexual health, but I would argue that masturbation is oftentimes very important to ones health. I really am torn on the fantasies; I would to lean toward agreeing with your statement in regard to fantasies. I look at my personal life and if I spend some time with a fantasy in mind and relieve myself I have found that I have an easier time avoiding “inappropriate” thoughts during the course of the day.
I found this artcile here: http://students.eng.fiu.edu/~denver/pdfs/Masturbation.pdf
I can’t say that I agree with everything that is said in the article but the beginning does a descent job in presenting credibility in the stance between lust and fantasy.
April 9, 2007 @ 11:06 am
That was an interesting article. The distinction of fantasy with intent (i.e. coveting and lusting) from fantasy without intent is one that I’ll have to ponder on.
April 13, 2007 @ 4:19 pm
[...] Yes. Are you counting masturbation? Really?! I’d like some scriptural backup for that because I think that’s a bit too [...]
Cybr said,
April 24, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Wow, that was a lot to take in. I was browsing the blogs and noticed a substantial number of postings for this. Yes I did read them. Can’t recite, but did read. On a personal note I’d give FYI kudos for his personal research and pondering. I might even venture to say that it’s possible that properly performed, masterbation might not be a sin in and of itself. I can argue for or against the subject as I’ve told Jonathan before. While I would normally argue for the position of the church on it’s position regarding the matter, I would not seriously scorn someone for it unless it was deemed to be a serious problem for them, then lovingly scorning them would be the preferred method. In which case it could possibly reveal that there is another underlying issue such as porn. And I’ll be one of the first to admit, it’s not easy to stop and the desire to do so may never leave.
Now, I did want to quote something FYI mentioned.
it is clear that Church leadership wants the members to speak about simple and plain truths and to stay true to the doctrine, not personal tangents and beliefs. Teach that which has been revealed. Then when people leave church they go home and “govern themselves.†You dont teach personal truths but truths found in scripture or church approved publishings.
Now in my limitted knowledge and understanding of the Gospel, isn’t that what the Book of Mormon and even the occasional spot in the Doct. & Cov. has tried to beat into us? Even Christ preached plain and simple truths, for it’s easier for them to have milk than meat.
April 24, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
Unfortunately, that runs up against D&C 68:4. If God’s servants can speak by the power of the Holy Ghost and it’s scripture, it muddies the waters quite a bit. The membership of the church is too ready to accept the opinions of the general and local church authorities because of this anarchic scripture.
May 21, 2008 @ 8:01 am
OK, I know this is an old post, but Jonathan just relinked to it recently, and so I followed suit and re-linked to it as well from a pair of new posts here and here.
These new posts build on the same ideas I wrote in my comments above from last year. It’s kind of a coincidence since I didn’t review this thread when writing the new posts, but on the other hand this discussion probably inspired some of my ideas on the subject.
Also, speaking of masturbation slang, for ladies I liked “parting the Red Sea” — which you (Jonathan) used in the comments of another post. Even though this is your signature topic, it seems to come up a lot on my blog as well…
May 21, 2008 @ 8:46 am
It seems to be coming up a lot all over the place lately. Or maybe it’s just that I’m obsessed with it.
I like that slang and “shaking hands with the bishop” because both have a religious root. OK, so the bishop probably refers to the chess piece, but I thought it was funny.
May 22, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
I am fairly new w/ this whole blog thing and I am very much surprised by how often this topic gets brought up. Probably cuz nearly everybody does it. But what do I know?
Anyway, I have a post on my blog on the subject.
http://mormonzero.blogspot.com/2008/04/mormon-sexuality.html
And also an episodic story about a character who deals w/ this issue
http://mormonzero.blogspot.com/2008/05/mormon-superstar.html
Haha, a friend of mine says she likes to refer to it as “enjoying some good old fashioned southern hospitality.” I thought it was clever.
June 2, 2008 @ 9:32 am
Southern hospitality! That’s hilarious.
We seem to come at the topic of masturbation from different angles, but we seem to share the same conviction that masturbation need not be shameful. Knowing that you were once “Struggling”, I’m truly happy that you’ve found peace.
Me said,
August 20, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
I’m glad I found this blog. I’m a 30 year old single female struggling with this issue. It’s embarrassing for me, and I’m torn on whether or not I should discuss this to my Bishop. I’ve read “Miracle of Forgiveness” and it pretty much just said it was not as bad as pre-marital sex. I haven’t really heard any recent GA’s speaking on the issue.
To me it seems to be a very natural feeling to be aroused, and without something to release it is very frustrating. I’ll admit I’ve been very tempted to look at porn and I’ve resisted that temptation so far, thankfully. I have tried to control it by keeping myself busy and avoiding any sexual content on TV or movies.
I don’t know if I had a point to my post, I’m just glad to see other members who have questions about it.
August 20, 2008 @ 7:12 pm
Thanks for stopping by. I’m happy that you’ve found some support. I know how lonely it can feel. The way masturbation is handled in Mormon culture tends to isolate us from each other. Just being able to share our experience with others in a nonjudgmental setting can be therapeutic.
In my experience, when I stopped stressing about sexual media, its allure decreased. The less I worried about being aroused by TV, movies, etc., the less power it had over me.
I hope you find peace.
BTW, I just updated the link to the original article so that it works again.
Me said,
August 21, 2008 @ 9:00 am
Thanks for the link.
I’ve also wondered why this issue is not discussed among the young women or the women of the church as much as it is with the men. Do they think women don’t do it as often? I don’t ever remember this being discussed in front of our young women’s group. I do remember them spliting the boys up from the girls once during a youth conference. I asked one of the boys afterwards what they talked about, they said they got the masturbation lecture.
I guess I just feel that sexual desire is something that is normal, after all we are told to multiply and replenish the earth, so there has to be some desire for that to happen. If you’re single you really don’t have an outlet for that desire. I guess when it becomes unhealthy is when it becomes an addiction and you start finding unhealthy outlets for that desire like porn.
August 21, 2008 @ 9:18 am
I believe there is an assumption within LDS culture that women don’t have sexual desires at the same level as men and that they don’t masturbate. I imagine this is just a reflection of larger cultural attitudes of the past. I see a lot of idolization of women as more pure and chaste than the corrupt men. For example, we have the common joke that men have the priesthood because they need it more than women. When I read the talks from the General Relief Society meeting, the women are often addressed as nearly celestialized angels.
That’s regrettable. I can imagine that LDS women who actually do feel sexual desire (i.e. almost all of them) feel like they aren’t living up to the idealized virginal portrait painted by their cultural expectations. They’re implicitly told that they are the gatekeepers of chastity, protecting men from their sinful selves; instead, the women find themselves wanting to join the men in storming the gates.
In case you haven’t discovered it, I posted a few months ago when masturbation became a hot topic on LDS blogs. The post has links to lots of interesting discussion.
Me said,
August 21, 2008 @ 9:37 am
Yeah, I agree, women seem to be set right up there next to God sometimes. I wonder if it is an effort to make up for the fact that men tend to be the leaders in the church and the church has been accused of inequality between men and women.
August 21, 2008 @ 10:21 am
That’s certainly plausible: build up womanhood and motherhood to create equality-in-appearance so women don’t complain about lacking equality-in-fact.
Me said,
August 21, 2008 @ 11:14 am
I’ve also noticed President Hinckley has been emphasizing that men and women should be equal in marriage roles.
I remember being in Young Women, we were told the man is the head of the household. I think this gave some men free reign to boss their children and wives around, which in some cases has lead to physical and mental abuse.
Anyway, I guess that’s off the topic…Thanks again for your links and taking the time to hear me out.
August 21, 2008 @ 11:54 am
I’m not afraid of off topic discussion. It usually leads to fun things.
Thanks again for your links and taking the time to hear me out.
My pleasure.
Anonymous said,
June 5, 2010 @ 8:26 am
I recently found this site, so this may be a little dated. I especially identify with FYI. I struggled with feelings of guilt, and without going into detail, I will only say that some of my Priesthood leaders have said nothing on this subject, while others have said entirely too much. I sense that most leaders realize that it is quite possible to do either. I was never asked specifically about masturbation until my interview with the Stake President to be made an Elder at age 18. I was a little shocked, since the horse was already out of the barn, so to speak. In spite of very ill advised teachings on this subject from some Church leaders, I realize that the Brethren have at least two very real concerns about this subject, aside from old prejudices.
1. Masturbation is probably not the best “hobby”. It is becoming increasingly apparent to counselors and religious leaders, both in and out of the church that internet porn can be a serious and corroding addiction. I use the old model I was taught in college psych. that if something is interfering with important or vital parts of ones life, then it is an addiction. Hedonists may say otherwise, but I think the facts are in. In this day, the old addage of “curiosity killed the cat” may apply.
2. It is well known that while a person may not be made “gay” by their own personal behavior, homosexual experimentation occurs in places where men are confined with each other. (Prisons, military, prep schools, camps etc.) The possibility of this sort of thing happening in the mission field (it does) worries church leaders tremendously. No church leader wants to hear about how a callow 19 year old was “corrupted” by his senior companion. There is in the mission field in many areas a “frat house mentality”, dating I believe from the ill advised directive from President Spencer W. Kimball that EVERY young man should serve a mission. As a consequence, there are many young men who shouldn’t be, or shouldn’t have been on missions. The Church has backed away from this advice in practice, if not in principle, and for many good reasons.
Because of these two concerns, I feel the leaders of the church are justified in establishing certain limited taboos regarding masturbation and related issues. However, Joseph Smith, when he established the church intended to cut off the false ideas of man. It is apparent that some of these have crept in with respect to this issue, causing much hurt and shame. Like FYI, I wish Church leaders would settle this matter once and for all based on the best scientific and doctrinal knowledge we have, or DON’T have. I close with a favorite quote from President Hugh B. Brown: “Do not have the temerity to dogmatize where the Lord has seen fit to remain silent”.
still in a quandry said,
June 5, 2010 @ 8:34 am
I recently found this site, so this may be a little dated. I especially identify with FYI. I struggled with feelings of guilt, and without going into detail, I will only say that some of my Priesthood leaders have said nothing on this subject, while others have said entirely too much. I sense that most leaders realize that it is quite possible to do either. I was never asked specifically about masturbation until my interview with the Stake President to be made an Elder at age 18. I was a little shocked, since the horse was already out of the barn, so to speak. In spite of very ill advised teachings on this subject from some Church leaders, I realize that the Brethren have at least two very real concerns about this subject, aside from old prejudices.
1. Masturbation is probably not the best “hobby”. It is becoming increasingly apparent to counselors and religious leaders, both in and out of the church that internet porn can be a serious and corroding addiction. I use the old model I was taught in college psych. that if something is interfering with important or vital parts of ones life, then it is an addiction. Hedonists may say otherwise, but I think the facts are in. In this day, the old addage of “curiosity killed the cat” may apply.
2. It is well known that while a person may not be made “gay” by their own personal behavior, homosexual experimentation occurs in places where men are confined with each other. (Prisons, military, prep schools, camps etc.) The possibility of this sort of thing happening in the mission field (it does) worries church leaders tremendously. No church leader wants to hear about how a callow 19 year old was “corrupted” by his senior companion. There is in the mission field in many areas a “frat house mentality”, dating I believe from the ill advised directive from President Spencer W. Kimball that EVERY young man should serve a mission. As a consequence, there are many young men who shouldn’t be, or shouldn’t have been on missions. The Church has backed away from this advice in practice, if not in principle, and for many good reasons.
Because of these two concerns, I feel the leaders of the church are justified in establishing certain limited taboos regarding masturbation and related issues. However, Joseph Smith, when he established the church intended to cut off the false ideas of man. It is apparent that some of these have crept in with respect to this issue, causing much hurt and shame. Like FYI, I wish Church leaders would settle this matter once and for all based on the best scientific and doctrinal knowledge we have, or DON’T have. I close with a favorite quote from President Hugh B. Brown: “Do not have the temerity to dogmatize where the Lord has seen fit to remain silent”.
P.S The most dirty minded kids I knew growing up are married, while some of the most sensitive and religious kids ended up gay. Go Figure.
Jonathan said,
June 6, 2010 @ 5:45 am
Hello, Still In A Quandry.
I agree with the usefulness of asking if something is interfering with important aspects of your life. I don’t think a positive answer is sufficient to call something an addiction, however.
I don’t think masturbation by itself is a problem. Masturbation combined with guilt or shame seem to be the precursors to real problems. Granted that adolescents may indulge so often that their lives become unbalanced. In my experience, if the sin-guilt-repent-abstain-temptation-sin cycle is out of the picture, then excessive masturbation loses it’s fun, as Green Day put it. Masturbation without guilt finds a natural balance.
Add guilt into the mix, and it becomes a huge drama that consumes emotional energy and interferes with life.
Jonathan said,
June 6, 2010 @ 5:52 am
BTW, I think the worry about homosexual experimentation is overblown, but requiring missionaries to live together is part of the problem. The whole modern mission rulebook seems designed to create a sexual pressure cooker (ironically because I’m sure the rules were designed to do the opposite).
lds org advocate said,
July 26, 2010 @ 3:59 am
Here is one thing for sure Latter day Saints are virtuous people they believes in the chastity and it being chase is not only required for woman, everyone is commanded to be chase.Any one that is so consumed with lust are accountable before God for His/Her deeds.
Jonathan said,
July 26, 2010 @ 7:54 am
lds org advocate,
LDS folks are probably no more virtuous and chaste than everyone else.
Also, care to back up your assertion that people are accountable to God with real evidence?
rambo said,
July 26, 2010 @ 5:27 pm
HI there my brothers and sisters, I think the principle why masturbation is a sin is because that feelings we have is not made for that. We are children of our father in heaven and we are His partner in procreation. Isn’t it wonderful to know that He gave us this privilege to be His partner in “bringing to pass His work” ?
Another thing I think why it is a SIN is MATTHEW 5:28 and 3 NEPHI 12:27-29 (same for women) You see, you cannot do that abominable thing without having your thoughts filled with immorality. If we will just look at others for who they are(and ourselves too) we will sure respect them (and ourselves too) not just in deeds, words, actions and even in our THOUGHTS.
Lastly I still believe and I know that General Authorities are Prophets, Seers and Revelators, whatever it is they will say, I know it’s from God. Wether it would be just their opinion or Church doctrine.Alma the younger who once talked about the resurrection also used the term “my opinion” ALMA 40:20
God Loves us all, the atonement is real. I just don’t knowhow to say words in your language but I hope and pray that we’ll all be guided by one language even the language of the Spirit.
Jonathan said,
July 26, 2010 @ 8:53 pm
Hello again LDS Advocate/Rambo,
I realize that you’re trying to spread the good word. What you don’t seem to understand is that many of us have followed LDS leaders as if their words came direct from God. Following their counsel which we believed to be inspired cause us years of pain and heartache.
Speaking for myself, when I stopped listening to LDS leaders and started listening to the inner voice of my conscience, I was finally at peace.
Coming here to spread the word that masturbation is a sin is like bringing the plague into a home twice cursed by its blight. Mormon teachings on masturbation have been a pollution and an abomination in my life that I’m happy to be rid of.
You say that you know that the GAs are prophets. Please read my post Feelings and share how you “know” such things. This blog isn’t the place for proselyting unless you plan to back up your unsupported assertions.
Jonathan said,
July 26, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think you’re a bad or mean-spirited person. I think you’re just unaware of how poisonous your I find your beliefs.