Just because something is incomplete does not mean it’s false. I think most believers would say that they have a rather incomplete understanding of God but that what they do know is true and of great value to them.

I agree that people are far too certain then they ought to be regarding their theological beliefs.

I like this argument, and think much a long the same lines. Paul Tillich a theologian in the mid 20th century made almost the same argument. In fact, his claim was the same as yours, any conception of god that the believer takes to be definitive is idolatrous. Nice argument!

REPENT!

The primary reason that I am comfortable saying that an incomplete understanding of God is false is that any defining statement made about a truly infinite thing is false. A definition makes an assertion about the totality of the thing to be defined. As the words themselves suggest, defining an infinite God is putting limits on the limitless. Saying “God is love” limits God from being not love. Perhaps “God is not love” is just as true, but our human minds can’t comprehend that aspect of God.

Lest anyone think I’m just being argumentative, some teach that the Shema should be interpreted to mean that God is the one reality: God is One (Elohim echad—אלהים אחד). This is the essence of mystical teaching. So for the mystic, God is love and not love. God is all things, truly infinite.

Any concept that a finite mind can grasp is necessarily finite and therefore cannot be a true reflection of the totality of an infinite God.

Johnny,

Nice to know that I’m in good company. It’s interesting that he qualifies the conclusion to include only those who take their concept as definitive. Without actually familiarizing myself with what Tillich argued, I would say that even those who don’t think that their concept of God is definitive still have a false idol in their mind; they’re just honest about it. It is the inescapable consequence of being finite trying to comprehend the infinite.

mel,

God’s injunction against idolatry reminds me of the Mormon concept of his contradictory commandments to Adam and Eve while in the Garden: go forth and multiply but don’t eat of the forbidden fruit lest ye become capable of carrying out my first commandment: damned if you do, sexless if you don’t.

In truth, the first of the Ten Commandments makes a lot more sense when YHWH was competing against the other tribal gods (elohim) for supremacy, before he became the poster child for monotheism.

Your lack of knowledge astounds me. You make it seem that you know everything about the subjects that you talk about, because you have read an article or two on the subject. Writing what you think you know about The Shema and other religions in general is ignorant. All you seem to be proving about your knowledge of these subjects is that you are a fool. The things that you write are extremely disrespectful, I have tried to sit idly by, be the bigger person and let it go, but until you truly live it and are a part of it, you have no standing. I can understand the things you write about Mormonism and the issues you have, being that you were Mormon for over 30 years, but, when it comes to Judaism and other religions, you have no ground. Because you have read a paper or two, or have spoken to former Orthodox Jew’s, that doesn’t mean that they are telling the whole truth, all they are telling is their personal opinions. The things that I have read on your blog and on the former Orthodox Jews blog, is not Torah based. The only way you would be able to stand on your opinions of these other faiths, is if you had personal experiences and have practiced them yourself. Stop trying to convince everyone that Atheism is the only truth and that anybody who believes otherwise is naive. Whatever you chose to believe or not believe is your chose and I respect that. Now give the rest of us the common courtesy to do the same. Everyone in this world, including yourself, is just trying to find truth and happiness for themselves, so please don’t crush that.

Your passion is obvious.

Writing what you think you know about The Shema and other religions in general is ignorant. All you seem to be proving about your knowledge of these subjects is that you are a fool.

I think we are coming from two different directions. I come at the Shema from the direction of mysticism and Kabbalistic teachings. You’re coming at it from more conventional Judaism. Even though what I’m saying about religious texts is unfamiliar to you, it doesn’t make it untrue. If you make a study of Kabbalah, I think you’ll find what I’m saying has been taught extensively by many Jewish spiritual leaders.

If you feel like I have misrepresented this or any other religious teaching, I’m open to hearing from your perspective.

Because you have read a paper or two, or have spoken to former Orthodox Jew’s, that doesn’t mean that they are telling the whole truth, all they are telling is their personal opinions.

I invite you to tell your side of the story.

This goes both ways, though. Your own experiences are no more authoritative for me than the experiences of the former Orthodox Jews.

The only way you would be able to stand on your opinions of these other faiths, is if you had personal experiences and have practiced them yourself.

From my own experience, I have also heard this from some Mormons who are uncomfortable with people who point out unflattering points in their history or doctrine. This idea is most often used to silence critics.

The truth is that we can make useful, valid judgments about something without experiencing it directly. To use a religious example, all of us make a judgment about extremist Islam (at least I’m assuming no extremist Muslims are reading this). We look at the evidence available to us, the outsiders, and decide that this ideology is not good stuff. No need to explore further.

I’ve heard it put more humorously: you don’t have to stick your head in a pile of crap to know that it’s not a pleasant experience.

Stop trying to convince everyone that Atheism is the only truth and that anybody who believes otherwise is naive. Whatever you chose to believe or not believe is your chose and I respect that. Now give the rest of us the common courtesy to do the same. Everyone in this world, including yourself, is just trying to find truth and happiness for themselves, so please don’t crush that.

My intention isn’t to make anyone unhappy. Just as you feel passionate enough about the things that you believe to defend them here, I feel passionate about the things that I believe to speak out about them. I am trying to explore and promote the truth as I see it. If you disagree with what I say, this is an open forum. Demonstrate that I am wrong, or at least present your own viewpoint.

The idea that it is discourteous to tell someone that their religious beliefs are wrong must go out the window. It’s not just a matter of each of us holding our own private beliefs. Those private beliefs have public consequences. Religious fanatics have flown airplanes into buildings. Religious fanatics have engaged in war in the middle east because they believe God told them to. Religious belief is not innocuous. It has real consequences for others.

Beyond that, I have a hope that the more we shed our superstitions, the better will be our situation. I respect your right to believe what you want, but that respect doesn’t automatically extend to what you choose to believe. I expect the same in return: don’t respect what I believe just because I believe it. Criticize my beliefs. Convince me that I’m wrong. Rescue me from the darkness of ignorance. Be my savior. I’ll thank you for it.

Lastly, please don’t take my criticism of your beliefs as a personal attack. I realize that intelligent, well informed, good people can disagree with me. They’re probably wrong but that doesn’t make them lesser people. I believed very differently not so long ago.

Stop trying to convince everyone that Atheism is the only truth and that anybody who believes otherwise is naive. Whatever you chose to believe or not believe is your chose and I respect that. Now give the rest of us the common courtesy to do the same. Everyone in this world, including yourself, is just trying to find truth and happiness for themselves, so please don’t crush that.

I see a flaw in this train of thought because most religions try to convert others. Their religion brings happiness, peace and salvation. Some religions go as far as to try to debunk other religions, hence Anti-Mormon literature.
Judaism is different because it’s more than a religion but an ethnicity so they’re not out converting people.
I don’t agree with what my husband says and believes, but what he says is his way to show why he is happy being atheist. Just as when I bear my testimony it’s me showing and telling others why I am happy to have the gospel in my life or to be Mormon.
I agreed with your train of thought at one point and maybe Jon is just wearing me down, but I do see value in allowing others to express their thoughts and criticism on their own and others beliefs. If no one were to criticize other’s beliefs their would be no growth or questioning. (Not that I like all his different posts about Mormonism. I will admit I don’t read all he or others have to say because it angers me.)

I hurt to see negative things written or said about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and at times I am able to defend my beliefs and other times I feel the person just wants an argument or I’ve even felt that they have more knowledge on the subject than I. My friend Anna for instance knows more things on my church in certain areas than I do and she’s never been Mormon.
I have felt attacked by some of my husband’s post, but I know that he would never attack me personally for my faith, just as he would never attack you personally for your faith.

In a strange way your blog about Judaism is the same as his blog on atheism. Your blog about G-d is the same as saying atheism is wrong.
Just as if I post about my faith I am discounting those who do not believe what I do.
Someone may be offended when I say that I know my family will be together forever thanks to the gospel. Someone could easily be offended that they can’t make it all the way to my Heaven because they’re not Mormon and endowed and sealed in the temple, which is essentially what I believe.
Someone might be offended that I think it’s a load of crap that all you need to do is take Jesus’ name upon you once and then you’re saved, but I believe that and they can believe what they want.
If that’s what makes them happy who’s to say their way of happiness is any less valid than mine.

You can’t just understand what Jewish mysticism is by picking up a book and reading it, it is something that is learned and studied by great sages, it is not something that any lay person can truly understand. And, Jewish mysticism and what Madonna practices is not what Judaism is.

What you don’t understand is Torah Judaism. Torah Judaism focuses on the individual, what other people are doing has no influence on me, because I am to busy focusing and working on bettering myself. Its not the Christian philosophy that we are the One true and only, and that it is the only way to get to heaven.

Regarding Kabbalah, on one level you are right. It isn’t something learned in books, but rather an experience of Unity. On another level, what is taught in the books of the Kabbalists leads the reader to that experience. What I said about the unity of God is a common teaching from Kabbalists. For example, the Ramak said:

The essence of divinity is found in every single thing—nothing but it exists. Since it causes every thing to be, no thing can live by anything else. It enlivens them; its existence exists in each existent. Do not attribute duality to God. Let God be solely God. If you suppose that Ein Sof emanates until a certain point, and that from that point on is outside of it, you have dualized. God forbid! Realize, rather, that Ein Sof exists in each existent. Do not say “This is a stone and not God.” God forbid! Rather, all existence is God, and the stone is a thing pervaded by divinity.
(Moses ben Jacob Cordovero in Shi’ur Qomah)

And Kabbalah isn’t just for Jewish sages anymore. Rabbi Yehuda Ashlag, the Ba’al Hasulam, taught that Kabbalah is now for all people in this generation who want learn the meaning of life. Legitimate Kabbalistic teachers are reaching out to all of humanity. For example:

perceivingreality.com
kabbalah.info

I admit that I don’t know everything about Orthodox Judaism, and I’m glad to hear that it doesn’t claim to be the one true way.

Torah Judaism focuses on the individual, what other people are doing has no influence on me, because I am to busy focusing and working on bettering myself.

I hope that isn’t really true. That sounds like a very lonely and selfish existence.

I am choosing not to engage you in this subject any longer. This is my truth and not yours, good luck on your journey, and I hope that you continue to grow and find out what is true for you. But, it is not my job, as a Torah Observant Jew, to tell you what that is!

That’s your choice of course, but I wanted to clarify something that I said.

To isolate ourselves from the discussion is a selfish act.

I didn’t intend to say that not participating here is selfish. We have to pick and choose where to spend our time. I meant the larger, human discussion. Isolating ourselves by only listening to people who share our own ideas is to consign ourselves to an intellectual ghetto. Conservative talk radio is a good example. If all we hear are people who agree with us, then of course we’re going to feel great about our beliefs, even when they’re dead wrong.

I don’t want this blog to be a ghetto. Dialog is essential to having a robust belief system.