Thanks for pointing me to your blog. I know your journey, though I have not read all the books you have, I have read some on your list and many others. I still am very much a believing and active LDS guy, even with all the many ways I relate to your story.

Believe it or not I have never read a Nibley book – though that’ll change very soon as I now have a copy of his “The message of the Joseph Smith Papyri”.

Thanks for sharing. What do suppose is the likelyhood that you are firmly in the 4th Stage of faith, according to Fowler? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stages_of_faith_development

You keep persuing Truth, and eventually It will own you. You could do far worse than to trust in Truth. I think that sincerety, or the willingness to follow truth wherever it leads, is key.

Even if someday it leads you back to the Church. Never say never.

From M+M with love,
Cliff

It’s been a while since I read Fowler, but from what I can remember, I identify strongly with many of the traits of both Stage 4 and Stage 5. I feel like Stage 4 is a transitional stage, pushing us to Stage 5. This whole process may have deposited me on the shores of Stage 5. Time will tell.

We’d all be better off if we could follow the truth more fiercely, but speaking for myself, I wasn’t really prepared to do that until recently. I had some maturing to do.

Perhaps my quest for the truth will lead me back to the Church someday, but from where I stand now, it seems unlikely. Even if I were to have an experience of the transcendent, I would probably interpret it very differently than I would have a couple of years ago. It probably wouldn’t even lead me to a belief in God. But who knows what the future holds? Que sera, sera.

How we react to our experiences depends largely on ourselves. The same stimulus elicits different reactions, different interpretations in different observers.

Take for example this simple sentence: “I kicked the ball on the roof.” What picture does reading that sentence conjure in your mind. I can think of at least six different interpretations of this sentence.

1) I and the ball were on the ground and I kicked the ball onto the roof.

2) I and the ball were on the roof and I kicked the ball.

3) The ball was on the roof (but I wasn’t) and I kicked the ball.

4) I was on the roof and kicked the ball which wasn’t on the roof.

5) I kicked the ball that used to be on the roof but wasn’t when I kicked it.

6) I kicked the ball that is now on the roof but wasn’t there when I kicked it (I didn’t kick the ball onto the roof).

Which of those is the correct interpretation? How is the reader to know exactly what the writer intended?

I have another example. I fell asleep in an another missionary companionship’s apartment on my mission. I woke up and felt a malicious presence skulking around the apartment, threatening the lives of the other missionaries. I couldn’t move. I couldn’t call out to warn them. I was stuck, powerless where I lay. I finally woke up completely and realized that my experience had been just a dream. Other people might have interpreted that experience literally. They may have felt that they experienced a dark, unseen, spiritual being intent on doing them harm.

Years later, I learned that other people had similar experiences, some of whom interpreted them literally. The phenomenon is known commonly as night hag, but more technically as sleep paralysis.

“During a ‘night hag’ the system that paralyzes your body is still functioning. However, for reasons not yet understood a person will awaken and be absolutely alert to their surroundings. This inability to move can be very frightening and since the person is aware of being awake most will tend to attribute this to some demonic or supernatural phenomena. The person is actually still dreaming and is in the middle of one of the most terrifying nightmares they will ever have. People have reported footsteps in the hallway and an impending sense of doom. Figures at the foot of the bed who touch and grab at them.”

Similar experiences, different interpretations.

If we both had the same experience of being filled with an ineffable, transcendent light, you might interpret it as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, whereas I might interpret it peculiar state of consciousness brought on by purely natural factors. Or perhaps I would attribute the experience to a communication from Krishna, Mithras, or my totem spirit rather than from the Mormon God.

I haven’t had an experience of the transcendent, so I don’t know how I would interpret it. Others have had experiences of the transcendent which led them to atheism. Can any experience deliver an unambiguous meaning which is immune to differing interpretations?

So there are no guarantees that I would come away from such an experience with a belief in God. The experience may proove God’s existence to you, but not to me.

I’m not saying never. This change of heart has taught me that never may come a lot sooner than expected.

I know what you mean about Jon’s comments. It is scary, very scary. Let me see if I can help just a little. In the scriptures, a very important teaching is that we do not make idols, or worship other gods. Back in OT times, that was a real problem. Today also, we tend to worship money or sports or fashion or science.

There in another level of understanding to be had, though, of this commandment. If a person thinks he knows who God is, but is mistaken, he may have a tendency to ignore or deny the Spirit as it tries to correct his view. He could get stuck denying the truth, and never even know it.

If Jon does not feel that he knows who God is, then in all honesty he can’t just ‘fake’ it. But if he is devoted to truth, then at least the Spirit can work with him. If the promptings come and he attributes it to his own higher Self, or whatever, then at least the spirit can still guide him, for he will be receptive to it.

At some point, the spirit will communicate pure intelligence, and at that point, Jon will accept whatever he understands from that. I see a lot of room for hope in that. And we can pray that Jon will see the light, and as long as we don’t get too dogmatic about the exact nature of that light, Jon might not even mind that we are praying for him. Prov. 3:5-6

Sorry, Jon, to talk as if you weren’t listening. After having said all this, I hope you realize the importance of balance within yourself. Reason < --> Emotions. Emotions are good, as is reason. Both sides are required if you are to stand strong, IMO.

The wierd thing about doing the blog thing, Jon, is that you subject yourself by necessity to all these comments. Hope it’s working for you.

Peace,
Cliff

I can enjoy it because I trust that God knows what he’s doing, God is in charge, and we all get what we need in our experiences.

I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that the Kabbalists say that ultimately, if you boil God down to his ‘reality’, he is nothing. Then again, they say God created everything out of nothing, (ex nihilo) but they don’t mean nothing, but rather, chaotic (something) that is indescribable, and therefore best referred to as ‘nothing’.

I think the buddhists do the same thing, as do the Taoists, etc. I find it all very interesting.

I truly feel like I was worshiping a false idol. My Mormon framework was dysfunctional in many ways. I’m open to the idea that I was doing Mormonism wrong. Perhaps someday I’ll meet the God that I should have been worshiping all along.

I should probably clarify that when I say that I don’t believe in God, what I mean is that I don’t believe in a omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent person who created the universe and is guiding our lives for our good. I have less to disagree with if you define God as the ground of all existence, or the will to good, or some other God of the philosophers.

I don’t mind being subject to criticism. The last advice Marlin K. Jensen gave me as my mission president was that I should be more open to other people. At the time, his criticism really hurt. I had no idea that people saw me as closed off. After I let his feedback sink in, I realized the truth of it. In a way, I’ve been trying to follow that advice ever since. Being protective of my self-image doesn’t help me to learn. It keeps me within the safety of my own head. It’s another example of how pride is paradoxically a weakness, and humility is such a strength.

I have found great value in looking for the truth behind religious dogmas and institutions. They seem to be saying the same things the closer that I look. I want to get beyond all the superficialities of religion to what we as a human family have really learned in our time here.

Jason:

I like that. I might have to use it.

You just earned yourself a place in my QUOTES file.

“Being protective of my self-image doesn’t help me to learn. It keeps me within the safety of my own head. It’s another example of how pride is paradoxically a weakness, and humility is such a strength.”

Beautiful. If that’s where pursuing truth gets you, I have no fears for you whatever. Just beautiful.

Peace,
Cliff

I understand your sense of loss. I too felt anxiety for those of our family who choose not to follow the Mormon path. I have felt an awkward barrier between me and my loved ones on the outside of the Church. A wonderful thing has happened as I have let go of my belief. New bridges of understanding have opened in that awkward barrier. I’m one of the outsiders now. There was a world that I could never enter, but now I’m there and it’s not as filled with shame and despair as I had thought. I hope that Mormon family won’t unwittingly put up barriers to keep me out like I did in the past.

What I fear now is a wall of anxiety, unspoken expectations, and pity which distances us. No matter how much we assure someone that isn’t following Mormonism that we love them, the message that we think they’re screwing up still gets across even when we don’t say that. It can be especially hurtful if if they’re doing what they think is best. Making that judgment is condescending. It says that we think we know better. Do we know that we are right? Is this worth the distance between us?

I do and say all these things (i.e. the blog, the emails, etc.) to bring us together in understanding that we can find comfort together.

Thank you for understanding my motives. I’m sure that Heavenly Father would want honesty before obedience or faith.

There is another curious change that has happened. By letting go of God and the judgments inherent in my previous religious faith, my heart has become a bigger place. I don’t walk around labeling people sinners and trying to remind myself that they are children of God. People are people. I can accept my brothers and sisters and love them for who they are and the choices that they make, not in spite of them.

My love for Lacey has consequently grown. I can’t imagine anything that Lacey could do that would make me stop loving her. Ridicule me. Mock me. Beat me. Cuckold me. Leave me. Ruin me. If she did that and worse, I can imagine myself understanding her reasons and loving her despite all that.

I hope that my love is never put to that test. I’d much rather be put to the test of raising a family and growing old together.

With love and regret for any pain that I cause you,

Your Loving Uncle

Also, if I believe something to be true, I will obviously want others to follow the same teachings, so that we can share the journey. Do not mistake this for pity, or for my opinion that you have somehow failed. I simply mourn the loss of our shared belief. I also similarly mourn the fact that we live 800 miles apart, but do I think you are “wrong” for choosing to live in Vegas? No. As I said, this is right for me, and that is right for you.

The message I most wanted to convey to you in my last message is my unconditional love for you as my uncle and my friend. I felt it important that I honestly express my feelings so that we would be able to build a bridge of understanding. I truly admire your strength to stand up for what you believe in, and would never profess to have all the right answers myself. We are all doing our best, and that is the most important. Love, Shauntae

What I ineptly tried to do [note to self: never blog while your blood sugar's low] was portray to you how I am beginning to see that an outsider may feel despite all of the best, most loving overtures (and sometimes because of them). I see a barrier which divides friends and family. I hope to describe this barrier without making anyone feel blamed. I’m going to use Mormonism as the example, but I believe that it happens in many other groups as well. Let’s see how well I do…

I would like to describe two groups of outsiders: the shamed believers, and the principled non-believers. The shamed believers are those on the fringe of activity in the Church who believe in its teachings at some level but feel ashamed of their behavior and how their life has turned out so far. They separate themselves from the flock because hearing the teachings that they aren’t living up to and seeing those who they perceive to be better than themselves just remind them of how ashamed they are. For them, the shame of the gospel is a social barrier which separates them from active members of the Church. The challenge is to convince them that they are loved despite their actions and to overcome the shame, somehow.

The second group, the principled non-believer (which I now count myself among), is the friend or family of a believing, active member, but who doesn’t believe in Mormonism although they have strong principles of their own. For them, the assertion that the Mormon church is God’s One Fully True Church comes as a challenge to their own beliefs and the choices they make. Absolute belief in the rightness of Mormonism is also a backhanded way of saying that Mormons are infallible, that they admit no possibility that they have come to the wrong conclusions. It says “I’m right, and you’re wrong and not as smart or good as me. Otherwise you would be Mormon.” That’s not the kind of thing to say to nurture a friendship.

I’m not saying that you or any other member of the Church actually wants to distance other people in this way or thinks this was, but that it is a real perception held by friends and family. This perception must be overcome in order to bridge the barrier that exists between active Mormons and everyone else.

I’m not satisfied with what I’m writing here. What’s in my head isn’t really reflected in my words. I think a much better essay on this was written by C. S. Lewis named The Inner Ring.