And just so you know, I don’t say these kinds of things often. I don’t attend church meetings and throw my reasons for disbelief in the faces of the believers. I don’t want to destroy someone’s belief out of spite. Honestly, I wonder if the world wouldn’t be a better place without religion. I try to present what I believe are correct principles, and let people decide for themselves.

In the end, this is my house, and I tried to warn any of my guests who might take offense, so I don’t feel bad.

Will you, by chance, be around Utah during the Suntone Symposium in August? It might be fun to meet up with you and your wife.

For this reason, I’ve gained a new respect for the neo-pagans. They (speaking generally about a very diverse group) don’t actually believe in their myths and symbols. They use them as tools to reveal truth, nothing more.

Don’t worry: I’m not planning any midnight orgies under the mistletoe.

When I came out of the closet and left Mormonism, the entire structure of rules evaporated for me. They became entirely irrelevant. I believe in personal responsibility these days. I don’t believe in guilt; I believe in recognizing my mistakes, setting right what I can, and making future improvements. I find the entire concept of making (or even allowing) someone else to pay a “penalty” for my mistakes to be morally reprehensible.

As I’ve told friends, I fired Jesus a while ago, finding he was entirely unqualified for the job.

Why is it so clear to me now and I couldn’t see it then?

I agree with you. The whole “sin/atonement” model just has no rational basis at all for me now. The only value I can see in it is as a tool to help those who are unable to move on from their own mistakes. By imagining a “penalty” and a mythical demigod who “paid” it for them, they are able to “get over themselves,” to put it bluntly. It’s really a shame.

The people who attend church services are a small subset of those who have been taught to believe in the myth, so knowledge of or belief in the myth alone are insufficient to motivate. There is little evidence that church-goers are any better behaved than the irreligious, so religious activity isn’t a clear-cut factor in producing better lives. In fact, it seems that non-believers are under-represented in the prison system, for example. The idea that religion makes us better people looks like a lie cooked up by God’s PR staff.

When I say that guilt and fear are poor motivators, I mean that they don’t generally do anything good for us. They might keep us going to church for fear that we’ll go to hell (or not reach the Celestial Kingdom), but they won’t help us to love our brothers and sisters, to be more honest, find happiness, etc.

Also, the Christian atonement myth may be nominally centered on love, but the foundation of that myth is guilt and fear. “Aren’t you grateful that Jesus loved you so much that he died to wash you clean and save you from the eternal burnings of hell, you filthy, disgusting, sinful wretch.” There is no need for Jesus’ love if we don’t believe the second half of that thought regarding guilt and fear.

I am a born-again Christian, not LDS.

A need for a Savior stems from our own shortcomings as humans. We can’t do it all no matter how hard we try. We’ll always make mistakes.

I think you made a positive step, letting go of guilt. We all make mistakes. We don’t have to let that rule our lives, instead, we let it go.

I think the next step is realizing that Jesus came to the earth to save it, not condemn it. John 3:17.

So, I would say we let it go by giving it to God. I John 1:9 says, if we confess our sins (screw ups) He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Believe you dirty, rotten, sinner system seems a bit harsh. I’m the most headstrong person I know, but I do know if someone told me to do something because I had to, I would not, for just that reason alone.

God gives us free will to choose whether we’ll follow him or not. There is no guilt. You make your decision to follow him, or you don’t follow him.

Therefore, I don’t believe that guilt and fear motivate me to accept that Jesus died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice to cleanse me from my sins. I believe I realize I can’t do it by myself and need some help and that’s why I choose Jesus.

I’m pleasantly surprised you’re still reading.

If I’ve misrepresented your personal beliefs through my ignorance or by using too broad a brush, I apologize.

A need for a Savior stems from our own shortcomings as humans. We can’t do it all no matter how hard we try. We’ll always make mistakes.

I’m asking the following questions honestly, in case I have misunderstood. I admit that my understanding of general Christian soteriology might be deficient.

Why do we need to be saved from our mistakes? What is it about our mistakes that threatens us? What can’t we do by ourselves?

I know the LDS answers which rely heavily on shame and fear, but I’m interested to hear your answers.

I think you made a positive step, letting go of guilt. We all make mistakes. We don’t have to let that rule our lives, instead, we let it go.

I now think much of my guilt was unnecessary, the product of Mormon—and by extension Pauline Christian—theology. It was only through letting go of that theology that I was able to let go of the guilt. Perhaps that isn’t everyone’s experience, but it was certainly mine.

Therefore, I don’t believe that guilt and fear motivate me to accept that Jesus died on the cross as the perfect sacrifice to cleanse me from my sins.

I pondered your comments as I drove home today. I tried to imagine Christianity without the basis of fear and guilt, and I must admit that I couldn’t do it. I can see being grateful to a creator who gives us life, but without fear and guilt I see no reason for Jesus.

If there is no fear that we will be separated from God or go to Hell, and if there is no guilt associated with mistakes, why exactly do we need Jesus to die for us?

I’m talking about Christianity’s raison d’être. Since I have given up on the idea of sin and hell (but not morality), I have lost all motivation to seek a savior. I no longer see a reason for Jesus’ sacrifice. The desire to be saved has been replaced by a sense of personal accountability. I am responsible for my actions. No one else can take away all of the credit or the blame for my own choices.

The current concept of Hell is a fiery lake of brimstone. Satan and his angels will be the only ones cast into the fiery lake (Revelations somewhere). Death is separation from God. (When Jesus was crucified, he cried, My God! My God! Why have your forsaken me?) If you don’t believe in God, then maybe that doesn’t sound like a bad thing.

However, if you had the secret formula for eternal youth and could live in a place free of violence and suffering, wouldn’t you choose it? You can choose to quit living or you can choose to continue living, no fear, no guilt.

The secret formula is actually quite simple, believing Jesus. Romans 10:9-10. If we believe Jesus, then we follow his teachings. (You are already following His teachings by being moral.) The same as if you believed Budda, and you followed his teachings. Now Budda isn’t a diety, but I think the concept is similar. All we have to do is believe that Jesus forgave us. That’s it.

I will admit as a young believer (child) I was terrified of going to Hell, and that is why I was sure that I had to believe in Jesus. But, then, that nagging always got to me, what if I’m not believing enough, even Jesus said that the demons know there is a God and sudder. This continued into high school. I wish there was that A-ha moment I could relate, but there wasn’t. Gradually, through prayer, meditation, talking/listening to others, and study, I came to the place I am now.

Also, though I’ve been a Christian my entire life, I have my share of shameful secrets, who hasn’t. But, it is nice to know that if I believe in Christ (meaning that I believe that he came to die for our sins and was raised again) that he will wipe those things away. It took me many many many years to get to that point, where I truly believe Jesus forgave me, no strings attached. Since Jesus forgave me, I’m free of the guilt that I was carrying needlessly. And, I don’t have to do penance, or good deeds, to make up for my screw ups.

It seems that if you are accountable to yourself for your actions, then you can justify anything you do since you are only accountable to yourself. It seems that is why people justify shooting a spouse for cheating. Even though the punishment, death, is far worse than cheating.

As for Christianity’s raison d’etre (sorry, no fancy italics here), I would suggest these verses: Romans 3:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:1, Romans 10:9-10. Fondly called Roman’s Road in my circles.

I look forward to your response. Your journey has made me look my faith in the eye.

However, if you had the secret formula for eternal youth and could live in a place free of violence and suffering, wouldn’t you choose it? You can choose to quit living or you can choose to continue living, no fear, no guilt.

Interesting. So the choice is between being with God and ceasing to exist? Or is the choice between being with God and being somewhere else away from God which isn’t hell? Is death the end of the opportunity to choose?

It’s also interesting that what you’re saying accords well with Mormon beliefs about the afterlife. Mormons believe that only Satan and his angels will go to hell while everyone else will either be with God in the Celestial Kingdom or somewhere else.

I don’t know if you’re aware of this already, so I’ll share it just in case. When Jesus cried out “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” it always bothered me because it seemed to show a lack of faith in God. Then Brother J.R. from the LDS congregation that Lacey and I attended when we were first married pointed something out which changed my perspective on Jesus’ outcry.

Psalm 22 starts out with those exact words. Jesus’ Jewish listeners would have been intimately familiar with the Psalms and would have immediately recognized the reference. Psalm 22 begins with the outcry of a persecuted man, praying that God would deliver him. It ends with the psalmist praising God.

Jesus was teaching a sly lesson about faith in God in the face of desperate adversity. I highly recommend reviewing Psalm 22 with this in mind. Thought you would like to know.

However, if you had the secret formula for eternal youth and could live in a place free of violence and suffering, wouldn’t you choose it?

Not too long ago I would have quickly agreed with you. Now I’m not so sure I would. It is because of our suffering that we have compassion on others. Without suffering, compassion is meaningless. What reason would we have to have compassion in heaven without suffering. Perhaps God didn’t have room to express compassion without this place of suffering, cloistered in the safe halls of heaven.

I don’t want to live where there is no compassion. Such a place wouldn’t be heaven to me.

The secret formula is actually quite simple, believing Jesus. Romans 10:9-10.

The formula certainly is simple. It would be quite difficult for me to implement it. I really, honestly tried very hard to believe that Jesus had died for me. There are in my mind just too many reasons to doubt that Christianity reflects how the world really works.

Also, though I’ve been a Christian my entire life, I have my share of shameful secrets, who hasn’t. But, it is nice to know that if I believe in Christ (meaning that I believe that he came to die for our sins and was raised again) that he will wipe those things away. It took me many many many years to get to that point, where I truly believe Jesus forgave me, no strings attached. Since Jesus forgave me, I’m free of the guilt that I was carrying needlessly. And, I don’t have to do penance, or good deeds, to make up for my screw ups.

What happened for me is that I stopped believing in sin and most of my guilt went away. It was quite shocking how quickly my outlook changed.

I would never have considered discussing certain topics before I let go of God. I would have been too ashamed. I had been afraid that the weight of my sins would follow me forever. Now the only guilt that I’m left with is regret for causing others’ suffering. I don’t feel guilty for offending God. I don’t fear eternal punishment or separation from God. I no longer fear eternity because I believe this life is all that I have.

I once heard from a wise teacher that forgiveness is giving up the hope for a better past. I can’t change the past. All I can do is try my best to make up for the past and try my to avoid doing things that I will regret in the future. I’ve made my peace with that. I no longer feel the need to be forgiven in the ultimate sense promised by Christianity.

It is counterintuitive to those of us who were raised religious, but I experienced joy and peace when I let go of God. I recently read an excellent article about the stages that many people go through as they leave their religion. It’s striking how many people describe their experiences in such similar terms. I really identify with them.

It seems that if you are accountable to yourself for your actions, then you can justify anything you do since you are only accountable to yourself. It seems that is why people justify shooting a spouse for cheating. Even though the punishment, death, is far worse than cheating.

My morality is now based on empathy rather than the law of God. I choose to avoid harming others because I can feel their pain. I want to help others because I have suffered, too. I am a good person because I choose for various reasons to be so, not necessarily because I am accountable to someone else.

As for Christianity’s raison d’etre (sorry, no fancy italics here), I would suggest these verses: Romans 3:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, Romans 8:1, Romans 10:9-10. Fondly called Roman’s Road in my circles.

I’ve linked the scripture references to make it easier for others to look them up. Thank you for sharing them. I guess I just don’t see why I need to be saved any more. Romans 6:23 no longer rings true for me. It’s interesting because at one time I saw things like you do, but not anymore.

It’s strange to look back and remember being so sure I was right. Now I have very different beliefs and I’m still convinced that I’m right. It makes me distrust that feeling of surety. Apparently I can be very sure of something that is completely wrong (either me now or me then is wrong, possibly both).

I look forward to your response. Your journey has made me look my faith in the eye.

I’m happy to hear it. The world would be a better place if we all took the time to examine our beliefs more closely.

I have thoroughly and completely enjoyed reading your blog, as well as your wife’s blog. At the end of 2006, I stopped attending Mormon services. I began to talk to my wife about that possibility starting last summer. My experiences in so many ways sound very similar to yours. It’s exciting and interesting to read, and it brings out a lot of emotions and memories. I am agnostic and have serious concerns about the church. But, I also have a deep respect for the church, and my wife, too, continues to be active in the church.

Recognizing a need for religious and spiritual activity in my life (even though I do not believe in the supernatural), I got involved with a Unitarian Universalist congregation here in State College, PA, where I attend grad school. It fulfills a need I have in my life to connect to others, reach outside myself, and in some way honor, reflect on, and try to improve humanity and our planet. I would probably consider myself a religious humanist.

I came to your blog after reading comments you posted on the Sunstone Blog. I am Guido.

In many ways, I wish that none of this had ever happened. My life would be much easier that way! But, I had to be honest to myself and to my wife. It took a lot of courage to leave. I’m OK, and my wife is OK. In fact, in many ways, we are the happiest we have been in years, because we are being honest to each other and true to ourselves. She is definitely sad, but knows that I love her and our children deeply and strive to be a good father and husband.

Thanks for sharing all your experiences. And thanks to your wife, too. By the way, where do you guys live?

I am grateful for the internet and how it brings together people of similar experience. It’s good to have community that isn’t bound by geography.

I’ve considered attending a UU service, but it currently conflicts with time of my wife’s ward. Maybe when the schedule changes next year.

I thought I was being honest with myself before, but I wasn’t. I was hiding the part of myself which doubted. The difference between then and now is like night and day. I too am much happier now.

I find myself in the middle of the conservative Mormon community of Las Vegas. (I’m kidding less than you might imagine.)

I have family members who have had similar experiences to the one you described above. I, as an active member of the LDS church, have a hard time understanding exactly what they and you have experienced because I have had multiple experiences in my life that have assurred me of the truthfulness of my beliefs.

I don’t want you to feel like I am attacking you with the question I am about to ask, but I have always been curious to here the answer of those who don’t believe in God. The question is: Where did you, the earth, and everything in existence come from if God doesn’t exist? How is the earth and everything on it created in such order and precision without a Creator? I would love to hear your feelings.

Thanks for taking the time to read and ask questions.

That is a thorny question. I think it’s a thorny question for everyone, though, not just atheists. Proposing that God (or an infinite series of Gods) created the universe only pushes the question back a bit. If God created the universe, then where did God come from? Or how did the first God come into existence? You can read also some of my thoughts on this topic in a dialog (trialog?) that I wrote.

What are your thoughts on how God happened to exist?