honestly, it was difficult for me to read the comments on that post, as it was for you. i wanted to say, maybe just confront the idea that there is no god, that whatever experiences you’ve had before were your own intuition or, yes, even delusion, and then see what beauty and triumph can come from facing that and moving on in a new direction. i felt like most of the comments were just enabling her to stay closed and limited instead of encouraging her to think beyond the limits of what she WANTS to believe. the one person (hellmut) who deigned to suggest that perhaps there really wasn’t a spirit, per se, speaking to her, and that it was impossible to know either way, was smeared with circular reasoning and the same tired arguments until his opinion was entirely eradicated. of course, it is a faithful LDS blog, but is there not room for the consideration that when god stops “speaking to you” it’s a wonderful opportunity to consider things from a different point of view?

then again, everything that was said there, i have also said, to myself and to others. pot, meet kettle.

You’re right, of course. Somehow I feel better that I say this here rather than in the comments there. That’s a rationalization of course, but it allows me to say what I think needs to be said without feeling like I’m kicking someone while they’re down.

I also agree with you that we can’t fault the faithful too much. It’s all too human to try to preserve our cherished beliefs rather than follow the evidence to rational conclusions. I’m happy in a way that I’ve had such a dramatic change of heart in my life. It’s made me more humble and willing to admit my own fallibility. I’m trying to guard against becoming dogmatic again.

The real tragedy, as you said, is that that whole exercise on fMh seems to limit her growth. I stagnated for so long by trying to hold on to beliefs that contradicted my experience. If only I could have realized the joy of speaking honestly to myself even if I’m afraid of the truth that I have to tell.

I agree with both of you. I was sitting there, looking at all the excuses being made for God and going, why do we keep doing this to ourselves? I liked what Hellmut was trying to say as well Chandelle, and it irritated me that they squashed him so completely.

I have to say though, that that’s why I’m still agnostic–who am I to doubt other’s experiences? Being one who said she’d never leave the church, never quit believing in God, etc. I’ve learned my lesson and I don’t say never anymore.

Anyway, I didn’t comment on the post because I didn’t want to kick her while she was down either. Although I do have to admit to a certain measure of peace concerning my decision to leave. I’m not nearly as emotionally wound up as I was before I quit going to church. I just didn’t think that such a comment would be welcome there.

I give Hellmut a lot of credit for saying what he did the way he did. I couldn’t imagine where to start. I think it was inevitable that any suggestion that the foundations of Mormonism may be in error would be seen as an attack. I guess you have to try, but it’s too bad he was seen as a fly in the ointment.

Like you, I’ve been trying to avoid making absolute statements. Life’s crazy. Who knows what it will bring?

The conclusion she came to was that the function of prayer was to force her to accept the situation as it was. She took comfort from this, and she is still a devout Mormon.

I told her that it was a very Zen conclusion.

I am fascinated with this now that I’m kind of on the outside looking in, now that I’m not making these same rationalizations. When tragedy strikes, it seems to be human nature to find a reason for it. Somehow the idea that our suffering serves a higher purpose comforts us. We find it extremely difficult to accept that shit just happens and that’s the whole story.