Jailbait
My wife and I watched parts of To Catch a Predator last night, the one where guys chat online with people who they think are underage, arrange to meet with them for sex, and arrive only to be greeted by all of America sharing their most shameful moment. I cheered the television crew on months ago when I first started watching this show, but something strange has started to happen. I don’t think the producers of the show wanted me to, but I started to have compassion for these sexual predators.
As chance would have it, I heard on the radio yesterday that this television program caused a man to commit suicide.
Louis William Conradt Jr., of Terrell, Texas, a Dallas suburb, was suspected of being one of those men, except he didn’t show up at the house. That didn’t stop the TV producers and police from showing up at his, though, and as officers knocked on his door and a camera crew waited in the street, Conradt shot and killed himself. (Associated Press)
The radio hosts, the kind that are paid to act like brain-damaged teenagers, related this story, basically said good riddance, and danced on his grave. Their callousness elicited my compassion. Wouldn’t someone mourn for this destroyed life?
I’ll openly admit that I have ephebophilic tendencies. I gather from the term “jailbait” and popular humor that I’m not alone in the adult male population.
I and most of those who are similar to me choose to abstain from acting on any attraction we feel. We know it’s wrong to prey on an adolescent’s inexperience. We shrug off the attraction and go on with life. I don’t lose sleep over it because I’m not ashamed. I chalk it up to being a human being and forge ahead.
There is so much hatred and fear surrounding sexual predators these days. It sells an awful lot of commercial airtime. Sometimes it’s easy to forget who sexual predators are. They are not some alien species. They are our neighbors, our friends, our brothers, our husbands, our fathers… our sisters, our wives, and our mothers. They are us. We are them. They are human beings who cross a perilously thin line. Are the rest of us so different?
We seem to be afraid to acknowledge that pedophilia (for example) is one aspect of human nature—an aberrant and harmful one—but human nonetheless. Whatever it is that separates a pedophile from a non-pedophile is uncomfortably thin. We prefer to think of them as aliens rather than see their humanity, rather than acknowledge the thin ice below us. There but for the grace of Fortune go I.
As I watched the news crew publicly shame those men, I allowed myself to see something that I hadn’t noticed before. I watched as their hopes and dreams died. The weight of what the future held for them made some weep, some get physically ill, and some just sit dumb with shock. These were weak, stupid people, not inhuman monsters. The show put a human face on sexual predators.
I want to protect my children above all else, but I am not insensible to the suffering of these men and the tragedy of human frailty.
Tags: bigotry, compassion, ephebophilia, fear, guilt, Humanism, morality, ostracism, pedophilia, pornography, sexual predators, sexuality, shunning, suffering, television
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July 26, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
These people are human, yes, but they crossed over the line and that is what makes them monsters. I see younger women and can feel an attraction, but I’m never going to prey on them. These people do. Their actions are not harmless. Their actions have consequences for the person they prey on, their families, and everyone they know.
These types of crime, including rap, pedophilia and the like, are ones that I have a very difficult time dealing with. My initial reaction would be to take these predators and castrate them. I know they must have some pretty powerful emotions they obviously can’t deal with properly in a useful manner, so they heed their feelings and do something stupid and cruel. I’m the first to admit that I’m not perfect, but there is a huge difference between some of the stupid things I do and doing something that can emotionally kill someone else and many they are close with for the rest of their lives.
You can’t discount that.
/paranoidfr33k
His Sexy Wife said,
July 26, 2007 @ 4:34 pm
Last night I to started to fell more for these men.
Not too long ago 30, 40 or even 50 year old men were marrying young girls of 14, 15, or 16 years of age. In one of my favorite books Pride and Prejudice Lydia, the youngest at 15, marries a man that is in his 30′s.
We’re not condoning the behavior, but in essence feeling sympathy for the men who fall prey to there own sexual desires. We make them seem horrible by doing this, but in essence it’s us as a society that has prolonged adolescence and you’re asking people to go against biology in a way.
We say they are young girls, were as for a long period of time they were women once they began to menstruate, and therefore able to be a wife and mother.
I suppose it’s us trying to be human and see how these people falter rather then quickly judging and not trying to understand them.
July 26, 2007 @ 6:34 pm
My Sexy Wife has a point about the biology. The line between legal and illegal is a rather arbitrary one, a product of convention. A good argument could be made, but that’s not really my point here. I’m not saying what these men did was okay. They set out to seduce young teenagers, taking advantage of their youth. If they had carried out their intentions, the repercussions would continue to hurt for a very long time.
But what has all of our hatred and anger gotten us, no matter how justified? Has it helped to deter these men or ameliorated the suffering of the victims? It doesn’t seem so.
When we call someone a monster, we are dehumanizing them. We say to ourselves that we are decent people, but those others are animals. They’re a menace to the innocents. They shouldn’t be treated like normal people. They don’t deserve to be free. We should apprehend them and castrate them so they won’t hurt anyone anymore. Maybe we should lock them up, away from decent society. Perhaps it would be better for everyone concerned if we didn’t have to worry about them anymore, if we just sent them all to the gas chambers and burnt their bodies in the ovens.
Dehumanizing someone is the prelude to violence and cruelty. Before we can give anger and hatred free rein, we need to suppress our native empathy. When we have convinced ourselves that the other is essentially different, then we can rationalize any manner of cruelty.
Dehumanizing also lets us ignore the problem. We can stop wondering how a human being who started life as an innocent newborn came to be the source of such dire suffering. We can ignore the fear that deep down that we are more like those we hate than we are different. We can live in a world of black and white where the bad guys are pure, irredeemable evil.
paranoidfr33k, I’m not accusing you of this kind of thinking—even though it is also an essentially human reaction. I’m just saying that it is too easy to fall into this trap once we follow our instincts to deny our deep connection to the people we hate.
July 26, 2007 @ 7:26 pm
Now this is a refreshingly candid and provocative post … though I’m becoming accustomed to such here on GO.
On of the ideas that I take from my religious upbringing is that the only way to defeat an enemy is with love…to make them your friend. The children’s book “Enemy Pie” comes to mind as a more secular expression.
But Jonathon and HSW, I think you’ve really nailed it here. You break the cycle by removing the hatred and you remove the hatred by seeking understanding and empathy … even sympathy (which isn’t hard if we are honest). Only then will we find the courage and compassion to embrace even those fully grown children who have lost their way down that spiraling path of self-hatred. It really is only as one decends towards the bottom of this abyss that social inhibitions on natural tendencies lose their power.
As you say, any of us could be there … most of us have in some way or another. Our hatred of these so-called monsters can perhaps be partially connected to the truth that we fear in ourselves.
PS, It’s really encouraging to hear that this particular reality TV show has had perhaps the opposite effect on you than was intended by the producers. It’s disturbing that we (and I mean all of us humans) find the humiliation of those we hate so gratifying.
cybr said,
July 26, 2007 @ 11:23 pm
Personally, I refuse to watch the show after having seen a couple of them. I don’t agree with the overly huge public humiliation and video taping of these individuals. I feel for these people in regards to how they are being set up to take a fall.
Now, I will still refer to rapists, pedophiles, and molesters as monsters. They have given away their humanity. Now can these monsters obtain redemption and regain their humanity? Yes, I believe it is possible. Unfortunately, many have a tendency to become repeat offenders. Whether it is the state or the person’s fault is for another day. And for those who know people who have served time, they will admit that honor among thieves (including murderers and adult rapists even) isn’t extended towards pedophiles and molesters.
You can judge me in my view of this all you want. But when it’s your best friend, your cousin, your mother, your wife who is the victim, you may have a difference of opinion. Having also known perpetrators, I do believe that forgiveness and ones humanity can be regained. But, part of the punishment of disdain being thrust upon the individual is necessary. But, if the individual is sincere in his/her remorse that love should be shown to them in helping them redeem themselves. But, I will side with and protect the victim first. They will need the most support and healing.
July 27, 2007 @ 6:47 am
Good points. All of them. Although I beleive that these people have committed acts of monstrous proportions, I am not discounting the fact that they may be “fixed”.
People are very capable of realizing that they have made mistakes and have the ability to change their behavior. All of us do it. We recognize that some behavior is harmful to us or to someone else and we resolve to change our behavior. This is a simple process that most of us have mastered over the years and comes easily to most. People who yield to their sexual urges and harm others probably do not have the capacity, on their own, to recognize the severity of their actions and make changes. The sexual urges they feel are so overpowering that they feel that there is no way out, other than to act on those urges. They may feel guilt, but the sexual urges are more powerful than the guilt and so they continue.
They can be reformed, but it takes a lot of work. They need constant friendship, love, caring and help. They need a supportive group of people, who are available on a constant basis, who are trained to help their particular condition. It can be done, but due to the nature of their crime, they don’t get any sympathy and so it is virtually impossible to reform them. This is where I agree with your assertion that we should feel empathy for them. We should. We certainly shouldn’t humiliate them on national television. That doesn’t help in the least. But what can be done?
I just can’t figure out, with my limited brain capacity, how to garner the resources it would take to reform these individuals. Its simply too big an undertaking.
Is there a solution that will work? And I mean work in the sense that these offenders will not offend again? Or is it wishful thinking?
/paranoidfr33k
July 27, 2007 @ 9:00 am
mel,
What you said about self-hatred and losing social inhibitions reminded me of the Virginia Tech shooter and something I heard somewhere. Someone had done a study of people who go those these extremes. I wish I had a citation, but the profile is a man who feels that he has nothing to lose. They feel like society sees them as small, weak, and unimportant. They feel alienated from humanity at some fundamental level. Their acting out is intended to show the world that they are big men who have real power, the power of life and death.
While this doesn’t apply directly to sexual predators, I think we can see the similarities and how shaming and shunning these offenders only exacerbates the problem. By pushing them to the edges of society, they lose the motivation, as you say, from social inhibition because they can’t get respect anyway: damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
cybr,
You’re bigger than me for having recognized the harm in this program at first glance. It took me a while.
If you insist on calling them monsters, then I will insist that their monstrosity is rooted firmly in their humanity. The two are inseparable. They wouldn’t act the way they do if they weren’t human. The only conclusion that I can draw is that humans are monsters.
Yet we are also capable of acts of great compassion. We are a frustrating mélange of good and evil. “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.” (2 Nephi 2:11) The closer I look at myself, the more I recognize the capacity for both great good and great evil. Perhaps it is only my social circumstances which prevent me from fulfilling my capacity for evil.
One thing that I haven’t called anyone on yet is the assumption that pedophiles are molesters. Pedophiles are people afflicted with a predominant sexual orientation to prepubescent children. We only assume that this means that they are molesters. This need not be true. Given the right kind of support, pedophiles can remain abstinent from acting on their sexuality, but it’s a hard life to lead.
Lacey commented to me last night that it would be like asking someone to refrain from standard heterosexual sex for their entire lives. I would add that it is also like asking homosexuals to bottle up their sexuality forever. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have no outlets for something which is so intimately part of who I am. Pedophiles are in the unfortunate position of being attracted to people who cannot give consent. Their sexuality must therefore remain forever frustrated. What kind of hell is that?! Those pedophiles who are trying to do the right thing need our love and support.
You also bring up the issue of choice. I agree that their choices have led them to where they are. My question is why did they make the choices they did, while I haven’t? How did this person who started out as a baby like the rest of us end up so differently? What got them from there to where they are? Simply saying that they are evil or immoral seems too simple. As one particular professor of mine would say, there are many simple, wrong answers to every question.
I happen to know people on both sides of this: I know victims and I know victimizers. The truth is that both sides are damaged by what happens. Neither side seems to need less empathy and understanding than the other. I don’t suggest that in our quest to love and understand we give past predators the opportunity to offend again, but there is a middle ground where we maintain safe boundaries but open our hearts to them. I don’t know that seeking to punish them with our disdain actually helps anyone, except perhaps letting us feel righteous indignation.
I wonder how I would feel if one of my children became a sexual offender. Would I wish that the world would reach out to them? To see the good in them? It’s a heartbreaking thought.
paranoidfr33k,
Lacey is much more qualified to speak about how well reform works and the what the recidivism rate is.
They may feel guilt, but the sexual urges are more powerful than the guilt and so they continue.
I would suggest that the guilt and shame that they feel surrounding their sexual desires is part of the problem, not part of the solution. I don’t think turning up the knob on their guilt would actually help much.
Imagine that instead of shaming pedophiles and making them keep their desires a secret, we accepted them with open arms. At the first sign of pedophilia we expressed our continuing love and helped them to seek help; we sent the message that acting on their desires is not acceptable, but we understood that they did not choose to have these desires; we allowed them to accept the form of their own sexuality without shame; we all accepted them and did what we could to keep them in society while protecting our children. I think, from what you have said, that you would agree that this is better than what we’re doing now.
I don’t think I have a global solution. As I often hear, think globally and act locally. I only have the energy to reform myself and perhaps help others to think about it.
July 27, 2007 @ 9:33 am
I think, from what you have said, that you would agree that this is better than what we’re doing now.
I don’t think I have a global solution. As I often hear, think globally and act locally. I only have the energy to reform myself and perhaps help others to think about it.
Agreed. We can do better. That is the simple truth.
Also, I agree that more shame and guilt is not the answer. That is religions answer yet it doesn’t always work the way that it is intended.
As most people, I have thoughts about doing things that are completely unacceptable, if I were to act on those thoughts. The line is crossed when they cross over that line from thought to action. If these people were accepted and understood they would not feel isolation to the point where they are on their own to deal with their thoughts/feelings/urges and we/others would be able to help them deal. As it is, our society as a whole is not in a position to deal with it properly. Although there are many reasons for it, I do tend to blame organized religion because of its strong-hold on the actions of its followers. This is a recent change in beliefs, by the way, as I hadn’t thought through this process thoroughly until my faith in the LDS Church was broken. I now see how big of an influence religion has on the world and how perceptions of problems lead to those problems growing worse.
There is a better way. I beleive that. And we do need to act locally in order to ever have a chance of making a dent at the global level.
/paranoidfr33k
July 27, 2007 @ 11:37 am
Wow, a courageous post given the current mindset. That’s what I love about blogging — you get real live people talking frankly about their experiences with taboos.
The only thing I’d like to add is Greta Christina’s review of Lost Girls (and of course my comments on that post).
July 27, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
Courageous or naïve, I haven’t decided which yet.
Lost Girls sounds stimulating.
Lacey aka His Sexy Wife said,
July 27, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Recidivism is high in pedophiles that offend.
Pedophiles are a difficult topic, I would like to point out that pedophiles are not the same as the men wanting to have sex with teenage girls, as Jon described that they are people physically attracted to prepubescent boy or girls. Again pedophile is not a word to describe someone who has committed a sexual crime, pedophile is a word to describe sexual attraction and is often used incorrectly instead of molest.
Now for my lecture on pedophiles:
If a pedophile offends they often offend on a large scale and they honestly believe that the child/children love(s) them and they love the child. Jon and I came up with the whole, asking pedophile not to offend or have sex with a child is much like asking you to not have sex with your spouse. This argument is flawed because a child can’t consent but the pedophile does not feel that molesting the child is bad. It’s how they show their love towards the child, and often children enjoy the sexual behaviors because it feels good, so the emotional and mental repercussions do not show until later after the experience.
My professor from my sex offenders seminar class still showed much disgust for those who sexually offend, especially those who molest children, but he still tried to show understanding and teach us an understanding of the way they thought, as so we could understand why someone might molest a child that is also a pedophile or is not.
Often the treatment methods to try to stop a pedophiles from offending are controversial, or even to test if the person is aroused by a child is difficult. (Plethysmograph is an instrument put on the penis to measure sexual arousal while the subject is exposed to different types of paraphilic, or deviant sexual, material. It’s not highly looked upon here in the US.)
The treatment to train someones mind to not be aroused is difficult. There are some negative aversion ones, but the patient has to inflict the treatment. (ie. the man would look at different pictures and for the ones that he became aroused at he would then smell a noxious scent. This treatment obviously only worked short term.)
How would you go about being trained not to be attracted to women, or your wife basically?
I think one purpose of this post is to show these “monsters” are human and once you dehumanize them then you can treat them any way without feeling guilt. (How do people who torture others for enemy secrets do it? They don’t believe they’re human therefore the end justifies the means.)
Some sexual offenders I believe are monsters but those offenders would be psychopaths and people who are void of morals or empathy, also sexually indiscriminate people in the sense that they do not abide by morals or standards when is comes to sex, similar yet different that a psychopath, sadist and people who do things for the thrill of harming another are also monsters to me and are untreatable and these three categories of people have shown to be untreatable. Think of Ted Bundy.
Those who offend adolescents are different and usually do it for the thrill nowadays. I think some men would enjoy having sex with a virgin no matter the age, 13 or 30. ( Think of Memoirs of a Geisha where her mizuage, or virginity went to the highest bidder.)
I think there are greater and lesser offenses and to say they are all the same is to misconceive the reason’s why someone does offend rather then see how we can help. It’s kinda like the sex offenders registry, do we do it to protect our children or do we do it to alienate and persecute our neighbors for past transgressions?
Lacey aka His Sexy Wife said,
July 27, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
I also want to say I am for the sex offenders website, it’s the reasons why we use it that might be wrong.
Cybr said,
July 27, 2007 @ 8:12 pm
I believe I separated rapist, pedophiles, and molesters. If somebody has the desire but resists the urge, lets get them help. If they follow the urge, I believe a punishment is due. And, they should still get help to not do it again. Consistent repeat offenders on the other hand, keep them locked up or at least out of any situation where they could act out.
Being of a religious nature, I think there was something in the N.T. about Jesus in reference to the little children that it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and drowned then what punishment awaits him in the hereafter who defiles a child.
But, I have not a global solution either. I don’t want people to commit these kind of offenses in the first place. If we could pinpoint the biological, social, or mental aspect that prompts these urges and then develop a treatment, that would be ideal to me.
his nice neice said,
July 27, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
Hey Jon,
I never feel quite intellectual enough to comment on your site, but I do have experience in this area. As a victim of sexual misuse and abuse, I feel somewhat qualified to share my opinions.
I have come to believe, after many years of suffering and painful memories, that those who cross that line into taking advantage of others sexually are very needy. They need to feel loved and valued, and this happens to be the way they express it. Disturbing and wrong as it is, it is their way of getting that feeling of love for themselves. I also believe, as someone mentioned, that they don’t completely comprehend the consequences of their actions…for themselves or their victims. I believe as you said, they need help…they don’t need extra shame.
As I have experienced my own mental health issues, depression and such, and as I have watched the struggles of some of my close family members, I’ve seen that many people we deem as “monsters” are just strongly in need of some intervention. Medication, therapy, whatever….my point is none of us knows how we would act if we were in the same mental state as them. It is unfair to put ourselves on a high horse saying that we would never act as they did…perhaps if you had been raised as they had, or had an un-checked mental health issue as I mentioned, you would do the same thing. We are all human.
It is embarrasing to me as a person that there are tv shows like this one that show these people at their worst, and we are supposed to be entertained by that. Maybe I’m overly sensitive about it, but glorifying in the failures of others has never quite done it for me.
I hope that all made sense…luv ya! Shauntae
July 28, 2007 @ 8:22 am
Cybr,
I agree that crime deserves punishment and that the most dangerous offenders should be segregated for our own protection. I just question whether we are doing it for our safety or out of a vindictiveness which clouds judgment and prevents us from making real progress.
Nice Niece,
Thank you for your brave comment. While I say that we need to love these people more, I’m still working on doing it. I’m heartened and inspired that you can actually see things this way.
Your comment reminded of something I heard in connection with Nonviolent Communication. We’re all human beings with the same basic needs and drives (barring extremely ill persons like true psychopaths). Everything each of us does is an attempt to fulfill those common needs. The differences between us lie only in our strategies. We each try to fulfill our needs in different ways. Some of us make very poor choices that don’t work well.
The point is that people who do these horrible things are, like you say, just trying to feel loved. We can fault them for their strategy (and even help them to learn better strategies), but sympathize with their root motivation.
I also realized that most of us don’t make it through childhood in some kind of safe, nurturing bubble that gives us a healthy outlook on our sexuality, myself included. Most of us probably were exposed to sexuality too early or in an unhealthy way. I realized that it’s probably normal to reach adulthood damaged in some way. Part of the work of adulthood then is to heal ourselves.
Again I am heartened by everyone’s willingness to at least acknowledge love for the offender as the ideal.
July 28, 2007 @ 8:28 am
I forgot to mention that I found Lacey’s sex offender class very interesting—I studied over her shoulder so to speak. I had a lot of misconceptions before her class.
Anonymous said,
July 28, 2007 @ 6:12 pm
I was 16 when I lost my virginity to a 30 something year old man. At the time it happened it was exciting and it felt good. I was ashamed of it in the manner that I let no one know and it was a secret relationship. We saw each other for sexual exchanges for a period of time and eventually I broke it off. I had changed and I realized that the intoxication of sexual enjoyment had clouded my mind to be easily manipulated. I had also entered this relationship due to attention. I wanted it and I wasn’t always receiving it. Allowing myself to be sexual with this person made me the center of his attention.
I am ashamed of this relationship. It makes me sad that I had sexual relations with someone so much older than I. At one point I wanted to prosecute him, but the shame of being exposed outweighed my need for revenge. At one point I worried about being pregnant. Those weeks were agony until I finally menstruated and knew that my shameful sex life was safe. I knew if I wanted to give the baby up for adoption I’d have to lay claim to some man and I was actually more ashamed to admit who I had sex with than the fact that I had sex.
I have disgust for this man, but at the same time I still see him as a very human person.
I think he was lacking in life. He wasn’t much of anything in his career and he still lived at home. I consider him somewhat of a loser stuck in his high school years. Still getting high on occasions and acting very juvenile. I think he genuinely had some sort of feelings for me during this time, whether they were just because we had sex or because he liked me as a person is debatable. He gave me me gifts and acted kindly towards me during the relationship also. Once I got over the first part of “wow this is what sex is like”, I realized it wasn’t that good and was eventually able to break it off with him, but the breakup was mostly due to the fact that my life had changed and I had no reason to see him. I was interested in moving on.
I divulge this information because I see the real young girls who are on these chat rooms needing attention and finding it from horny older men who want young pussy.
I know what it’s like to be a victim in this exact situation that the Dateline show is about. I wasn’t 13, but I wasn’t really prepared for a sexual relationship with someone who was 15+ years older than me. Truly I think I wasn’t ready for sex at all.
I do know that you can move on in life and that it’s not so damaging that I think the person who did this to me needs to be castrated or even locked up for life. He was human and wanted to get laid. Don’t we all just want to get laid sometimes?
I do think he needs help. It was somewhat damaging and it has seeped into other relationships that I have had and I’m still unsure how it will affect any future marriage. I think that had I not given him the opportunity to let him know that I wanted his attention, no matter the expense, things would have turned out differently.
I think it’s parents who need to be active in their children lives. Exposing them to healthy sexual relations and being open about sexuality. Parents also need to give their children enough attention and instill a since of self value and worth so when they’re not there to monitor their children’s actions the child can act responsibly.
People only blame the 30 year old horny man, but if the children had good relationships with their parents and knowledge about sex, then they’d be able to understand and see through the manipulation and wouldn’t be seeking for attention elsewhere.
July 28, 2007 @ 8:17 pm
Damn, anon … that was … that was the best damn thing I’ve ever read on the subject anywhere. Thank you.
We the perps and victims and parents of potential perps and victims are just lost children … all of us. Let’s change this for our generation.
July 28, 2007 @ 8:29 pm
… and ” his nice neice” thank you too! By my heart that was beautiful and brave. I think you’ve proven that there is a great deal of hope for the future of the human race … with or without jesus.
July 28, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
[...] Green Oasis: Jailbait. [...]
July 29, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Anonymous,
If nothing else, your story shows that these situations aren’t simple. There’s enough blame to go around. You take some responsibility and assert that parent’s also are to blame. Perhaps we like to assign all the blame to the predator so that we can ignore our own culpability.
July 29, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
Not that I’m insinuating that all victims of sexual abuse somehow asked for it. Anonymous sounds like she naïvely allowed herself to be seduced not knowing what sex entailed. Her partner should have known better.
Lacey aka His Sexy Wife said,
July 29, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
First I want to apologize for any repetitive analogies that I gave that Jon also used. That’s the problem with discussing certain things when you’re married and blogging. He has his way of saying things and I have my own.
Nice Niece,
Second, life experience is the hardest way to learn about sexual abuse. It seems that you’ve come to terms very well on how to deal with sexual abuse and misuse and the repercussions that happened to you. I love you and I’m happy to see you’re openness and bravery.
First, this is also one of the few post that I have felt intellectual enough to post on, mostly because I took a course in college on it though.
Anonymous,
You supported my example of how sexual abuse is often enjoyable to the victim. Of course at 16 a person is right in the heat of developing as a sexual being and the world recognizes that where as they often forget that children are sexual beings too.
I feel for you relationship and the shame that came with it and give you my sympathy.
You bring up an interesting point about parents and a victims own responsibility. As a psych major, and from my class on sex offenders class, I know that predators often pray on children who are from a lacking home environment. Children of single parents, or abusive homes are often the easiest to seduce and victimize.
Jon mentioned sometimes the naivety of the victim also takes place in whether they are sexually abused. I think young girls know that sex sells. They see it being sold everywhere and are not blind to the attention that is given to sexual adults or peers they may be around, so they also use sex. Whether they understand the consequences or not is a different topic, though I’m sure the majority would agree that young children and teenagers do not understand the consequences of using sex to get attention, whether it be from the very act or from just portraying that they’re sexually available.
Now for a personal experience.
When I was 16 I worked as a busser in a small family owned restaurant/ bar. It drove me nuts to hear derogatory comments that the costumers would make while I was serving them or cleaning up other tables. (I also heard it from the waiters and bartenders, but that’s another story about harassment in the work place.) Most of the costumers knew that I was only 16 or so and they were old enough to be my father. One comment that sticks out in my mind was when a man at a table across from me said to his friend, “If only I was 20 years younger”, while I was bending over to wipe down a booth.
It may not sound that bad on paper, really on computer screen, but the way he said it and they sigh he gave afterwards was more then enough to send chills down my back. I was disgusted that he would make a comment about someone that was no more than 6 feet away from him.
I won’t deny that I used my beautiful smile to charm people. It was often easier to shrug comments off than to get upset.
I think the world, or at least Sin City, is lacking when it comes to giving respect to women and understanding that they don’t all want your attention just because you have testosterone and they’re cute.
July 29, 2007 @ 9:03 pm
this was an amazing post- comments and experiences included. over the last two years i’ve developed an idea i got one day while sitting in Elder’s Quorum where i realized we all make decisions based on our past experiences, our current understanding of the choice at hand, and our unique chemical makeup. That day in Elder’s Quorum i quickly realized that i could not feel bad for my mistakes made in the past (thus eliminating the need for the Atonement) because i made the decisions based on my limited understanding of the issue and its consequences (see link for better idea of what i mean). Later this idea would evolve in me to (at least strive for) much greater empathy towards others, regardless of how heiness the crime committed. in other words, would i do what Hitler did? and i have to think to myself that the reason i would not is only because i was raised differently; i am made up with different amounts of the pertinent chemicals in my brain; and the opportunities have not presented themselves to me as they were to Hitler. but if i were born in his shoes, his gen. makeup, had his life experiences and opportunities/resources presented to him, his world view, i don’t see how i would have done differently than Hitler. therefore i don’t see how i would have done differently than those sexual predators presented on TV. what would make me different? willpower? where does that come from, if not from the items i’ve gone over here?
time after time, issue after issue i find it extremely interesting how free-thinkers can many times come to the same thought processes on their own.
i applaud the empathy shown in this post and comments.
thank you for acknowledging that the only thing that seperates us from a sexual predator might be “thin ice” and that thin ice that seperates us from them might merely be to have a more favorable proportion of some chemicals in our brain- nothing more. how sobering.
i think empathy can end wars, save marriages and just make the world a better place. i’ll take the lesson learned from this post with me for years to come so thanks, guys.
July 30, 2007 @ 8:14 am
Lacey,
That’s an important point about the commercialization of sex. While it seems that we’re becoming more open about sexuality, that is not a sufficient condition to be healthy sexually. If an advertiser manipulates us through a stylized, artificial presentation of sex, then we’re not really in a healthy place.
One of my objections to how sex is portrayed in our media is that it is too clean, lacking consequences. Lost Girls sounds like an exception, but for the most part, our media don’t portray the messy, sloppy, funky, entangling, ambivalent, dangerous side of sex. Sex in the movies is too pretty. It’s like photoshopped models: more beautiful than life.
I can’t blame our youth for having unrealistic expectations of sex. We’ve been telling them fairy tales.
markii,
This is exactly how I feel about it. If our behavior is largely deterministic based on physical factors (which seems to be supported by experimental evidence), then we can’t hold people morally responsible in the same way that we could if we had libertarian free will. For example, instead of seeing sexual predators as evil in need of punishment, we start seeing them as ill in need of healing.
This newfound source of empathy is one thing that surprised me as I made the transition from supernaturalism to naturalism. I did not expect to find increased love and tolerance there.
August 6, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
Wow. A lot has happened since I left on vacation. This post keeps getting better and better, and deeper.
I’ve come away, so far, with a better understanding of my original thoughts and feelings. I understand now why relating to criminals as “monsters” doesn’t help anything or anyone.
I’ve not had any personal experience with molestation or pedophilia, and thats probably why I feel the way I do, although I would rather learn from others and develop a better system for dealing with problems such as this.
I enjoyed Markii’s comments about understanding the experiences and understanding that everyone has and how that ultimately realizes our decisions at the moment; hind-sight is always 20/20 as they say.
The personal experiences by Shauntae and Anonymous were very helpful as well. Put into the right perspective, I think we can agree that we, as a collective society, need to do much more to help those who have problems, sexually and otherwise, before the issues fester and end up hurting those around them.
Thank you, Jonathan and Lacey for a very productive post and comment thread. I’ve gained a lot from it and I hope others have as well.
/paranoidfr33k
August 7, 2007 @ 12:48 am
When I was in my late 30s, a chain of events unexpectedly led to dozens of high school kids befriending me, about half of whom were girls. Some of the girls became surprisingly close to me, visiting every day, and so forth. I didn’t have sex with any of them, but I did learn how dizzying it is to have an attractive girl make a pass at you. And those experiences taught me — I’m not a very moral man. For I sure didn’t turn down any opportunities for moral reasons. My moral sense simply isn’t strong enough to resist such things. In every case, the only thing that kept me from statutory rape were various practical considerations. So, I entirely agree with those who have pointed out here how thin the ice we skate on really is.
August 7, 2007 @ 8:38 am
paranoidfr33k,
These ideas are still bumping around in my head, rearranging some of my other ideas. I’m also grateful for the great discussion that’s happened.
Paul Sunstone,
How often do we really do things just because they’re the Right Thing to do? That’s only one factor in our decision making process. More often than not, I do the Right Thing for selfish reasons.
August 16, 2007 @ 10:43 am
Is there any wonder why adult men get in trouble when 15-year-olds look like this?
August 17, 2007 @ 6:13 am
She’s 15? Ya. She’ll cause some trouble alright…
So, how abouts continuing this discussion as it relates to Joseph Smith. Any takers?
August 17, 2007 @ 8:12 am
I’ll just say that Joseph Smith probably married ten teenagers ranging in age from 14 to 19. If you say that marriage at 14 was common in Joseph Smith’s day, please present evidence because I can’t find any.
August 17, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Oh, it was totally normal. Lots of people say so.
You’re not getting any evidence from me. I can’t find it either.
You know, some people think that Joseph tried to stop polygamy.
Not that I beleive it though.
August 23, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
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